propaganda, as Mr. Doyle pointed out, can only lead to the inference by this committee and I am sure by the members of the Congressthat you must be engaged in subversive activities at the present time. Is there any reason why this witness should be further retained under subpena?

Mr. KUNZIG. No, sir.

Mr. VELDE. If not the witness is dismissed, and call your next wit

ness.

(At this point Mr. Schlipf conferred with Mr. Andersen.)

Mr. SCHLIPF. Can I reply to that, Mr. Chairman? Can I reply to that?

Mr. VELDE. You are dismissed.

Mr. KUNZIG. Mr. Fagerhaugh now has arrived.

Mr. VELDE. In the testimony you are about give before this subcommittee do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FAGERHAUGH. I do.

TESTIMONY OF OLE FAGERHAUGH, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, ROBERT E. TREUHAFT

Mr. KUNZIG. Would you state your full name, please, for the record? Mr. FAGERHAUGH. My name is Ole Fagerhaugh.

Mr. KUNZIG. How do you spell that, sir?

Mr. FAGERHAUGH. First name, O-1-e; last name, F-a-g-e-r-h-a-u-g-h. Mr. KUNZIG. Mr. Fagerhaugh, I see you are accompanied by counsel. Would he please state his name and address for the record?

Mr. TREUHAFT. My name is Robert E. Treuhaft, attorney at law, 1440 Broadway, Oakland. I would like to

Mr. KUNZIG. Mr. Fagerhaugh

Mr. TREUHAFT. Mr. Kunzig, I would like to say one word. I understand that at the close of my testimony yesterday a ruling was made that my subpena was continued. Since I consider a subpena by this committee a form of intimidation

Mr. JACKSON. No, yours was not extended, Mr. Treuhaft. The action pertained to the witness who preceded you.

Mr. TREUHAFT. Is it understood then that I am no longer under subpena before this committee?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes; when you were dismissed from the committee, you were dismissed from any further obligation of the subpena.

Mr. KUNZIG. Mr. Fagerhaugh, would you state your address, please?
Mr. FAGERHAUGH. I live at 2285 East 19th Street, Oakland.
Mr. KUNZIG. When and where were you born, sir?

Mr. FAGERHAUGH. Well, I was born in May in the year of the San Francisco earthquake, but I assure you I was born in Norway, so I couldn't have had anything to do with that. I was born in Tromso, Norway, T-r-o-m-s-o.

Mr. KUNZIG. Are you now a citizen of the United States?

Mr. FAGERHAUGH. I am.

Mr. KUNZIG. When did you become a citizen?

Mr. FAGERHAUGH. I became a citizen by virtue of my father's becoming a citizen while I was still a minor.

Mr. KUNZIG. When did he become a citizen?

41002-54-pt. 4- -4

Mr. FAGERHAUGH. I think it was in 1912, if I am not mistaken.
Mr. KUNZIG. What is your present employment, sir?

Mr. FAGERHAUGH. I am a warehouseman.

Mr. KUNZIG. Where are you employed?

(Upon order of the Chairman, certain remarks of the witness were ordered stricken at this point.)

Mr. VELDE. Will you answer the question, please? What is your employment?

(At this point Mr. Fagerhaugh conferred with Mr. Treuhaft.) (Upon order of the chairman, certain remarks of the witness were ordered stricken at this point.)

(At this point Mr. Fagerhaugh conferred with Mr. Treuhaft.)

Mr. VELDE. Now will you answer the question, Mr. Witness, or give your legal basis for refusing to answer the question?

Mr. FAGERHAUGH. Well, I am trying to give my reasons, including my legal reasons for refusing to answer this question, and I would like to proceed to do that if the committee will permit.

Mr. JACKSON. Your opinion of the committee is not a legal reason for refusing to answer the questions. As a matter of fact, the committee is not at all concerned with your opinion of it.

Mr. SCHERER. I am going to object to counsel in this case again telling the witness what to say.

Mr. TREUHAFT. I am going to object to the committee making inferences that are unjustified.

Mr. VELDE. The counsel should know his rights to confer with his witness. This is not a court of law as counsel well knows.

Mr. TREUHAFT. I am aware of that.

Mr. VELDE. This is a committee of Congress trying to ascertain the true facts about subversion in this country, and I ask that the counsel for the witness please remember that fact and act in accordance with the rules of the committee.

Will the witness answer the question?

Mr. FAGERHAUGH. Will you repeat the question, please?

Mr. KUNZIG. I believe if I recall correctly that the question was, Where are you presently employed?

Mr. FAGERHAUGH. I am going to continue to stand on my right not to answer that question because, as I say, the committee is already fully aware of where I am employed, and I don't see any purpose

Mr. SCHERER. Frankly I don't know where you are employed; I have no idea where you are employed, and the record should show where you are employed. It is not on the record, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. VELDE. Frankly, I don't know, either, and I don't know whether any member of the committee knows.

Mr. FAGERHAUGH. I would rather the committee enter that fact into the record from their own records. I am not going to be a party to dragging my employer into this smear campaign.

Mr. JACKSON. Does the committee know where the witness is employed?

Mr. KUNZIG. Yes, sir. May I answer that in 1 minute? I should like first to request that the witness be directed to answer that question, and then I will ask another one about the address.

Mr. VELDE. Certainly, the witness is directed to answer the question. Where are you employed?

(At this point Mr. Fagerhaugh conferred with Mr. Treuhaft.) Mr. FAGERHAUGH. I am going to decline to answer that question on the grounds of my rights under the fifth amendment.

Mr. KUNZIG. Let me put it this way, Mr. Fagerhaugh: Are you employed at the Illinois Glass Co., 601 36th Avenue, Oakland, so that the record will state correctly?

Mr. FAGERHAUGH. Same answer.

Mr. KUNZIG. You feel that to answer "Yes" or "No" to that question would incriminate you?

Mr. FAGERHAUGH. I don't feel that that answer or any answer I might give here might incriminate me. I have committed no crime. I am guilty of no crime, and I have nothing to fear. Now, my rights under the Constitution state that I may decline to answer this question on the grounds that I am guaranteed the right not to act as a witness against myself, and for further reasons

Mr. VELDE. In a criminal proceeding; is that not true? And you say you have committed no crime whatsoever. Then do you still feel that you are entitled to the protection of the fifth amendment, when you have committed no crime?

(At this point Mr. Fagerhaugh conferred with Mr. Treuhaft.) Mr. FAGERHAUGH. I want to make very clear my position on this because what is said here today may some day be used in a court of law, and so I want it clearly understood the reason-my reasons for claiming the right not to answer this question under the fifth amendment, and I would like to

Mr. VELDE. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.

Mr. KUNZIG. Mr. Chairman, the witness has refused to answer on the grounds of the fifth amendment and has said under oath he has not committed any crime. I should like therefore to ask him this question, whether you have ever been a

Mr. TREUHAFT. Just a moment, counsel. The answer has not been finished, and you have interfered and interrupted.

Mr. VELDE. Counsel knows his right to advise with his client; it is limited to that.

Mr. TREUHAFT. I want to consult with my client.

(At this point Mr. Fagerhaugh conferred with Mr. Treuhaft.) Mr. VELDE. Give the counsel an opportunity to talk with the wit

ness.

Mr. KUNZIG. Mr. Chairman, may I continue with the questioning? Mr. FAGERHAUGH. I would like to continue

Mr. KUNZIG. There is no question before the witness.

Mr. VELDE. There is no question before the witness.

Mr. FAGERHAUGH. I have not finished answering my reasons.

Mr. VELDE. You have been given permission and opportunity to confer with your counsel. No question is pending.

Mr. FAGERHAUGH. I still didn't finish the question that was asked. Mr. KUNZIG. For the record, to make it clear, the previous question the witness declined to answer on the grounds of the fifth amendment. Now I ask this question, Mr. Fagerhaugh: Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party

(At this point Mr. Fagerhaugh conferred with Mr. Treuhaft.) Mr. KUNZIG (continuing). Political Affairs Committee of Alameda County?

Mr. FAGERHAUGH. I am not going to answer any further questions until I have been given an opportunity for the record to give a complete answer to the last question that was asked of me.

Mr. VELDE. Well, will you give a complete answer, or will you refuse to answer, as you have done before?

Mr. FAGERHAUGH. I want to give my reasons for declining to

answer.

Mr. VELDE. You may give your reasons, your explanation, if you will answer the question, but certainly not if you refuse to answer the question.

Mr. FAGENHAUGH. I think it should be made very clear my reasons for refusing to answer this question because the committee seems to raise the question, well, what have I to fear to answer a question like where do I work. Well, for the sake of the record, I want my reasons, I want to give my reasons for declining to answer under the fifth amendment because this case may come into a court of law, and I want it clearly understood what my reasons are. Now, I would like

Mr. VELDE. You say you have committed no crime. Then how can you sit there and claim the privileges against self-incrimination?

Mr. FAGERHAUGH. Because the fifth amendment was drawn up to protect the innocent as well as the guilty, as you well know, and Chief Justice Rutledge has said, and if I may quote him

Mr. VELDE. The committee is well aware of the

Mr. FAGERHAUGH. I am not so certain the committee is well aware, and for the record I would like to give a brief quote.

Mr. JACKSON. In regular order, Mr. Chairman, let us have the questions and get the declinations or the answers.

Mr. VELDE. If the witness continues to make voluntary statements not in answer to the question that counsel asks and the members of this committee ask, I assure you that you will be removed from the hearing room.

Proceed, Mr. Counsel.

Mr. KUNZIG. The question now before the witness which he has been evading, Mr. Chairman, is: Have you ever been a member of the Political Affairs Committee of the Communist Party of Alameda County, a very simple question to answer.

(At this point Mr. Fagerhaugh conferred with Mr. Treuhaft.) Mr. FAGERHAUGH. Pardon me, what was the question?

(Representative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this

point.)

Mr. KUNZIG. Well, I just wonder how you can confer all that time without knowing the question, but I will repeat it for about the fourth time, Mr. Witness. Have you ever been a member of the Political Affairs Committee of the Communist Party of Alameda County, as was testified here yesterday by Mr. Blodgett?

Mr. FAGERHAUGH. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of the fifth amendment.

Mr. KUNZIG. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party at any time whatsoever?

Mr. FAGERHAUGH. I likewise decline to answer that question on the grounds of my rights under the fifth amendment.

Mr. KUNZIG. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. FAGERHAUGH. I further decline to answer that question on the grounds of the fifth amendment.

Mr. KUNZIG. No further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. VELDE. Mr. Scherer.

Mr. SCHERER. No questions.
Mr. VELDE. Mr. Doyle.

Mr. DOYLE. No questions.

Mr. VELDE. I have no further questions

(At this point Mr. Fagerhaugh conferred with Mr. Treuhaft.) Mr. VELDE. Except I would like to make this observation as I did with the previous witness: Your refusal to give this committee information concerning subversive activities in which you might have been engaged or that you might have been engaged in in this area can only lead us to believe that you must presently be engaged in subversive activities.

Is there any reason why this witness should be further retained under subpena?

Mr. KUNZIG. No, sir.

Mr. VELDE. The witness is dismissed, and the committee will be in recess for 10 minutes.

(Whereupon, at 10:47 a. m., the hearing was recessed to reconvene at 10:57 a. m.)

(The hearing reconvened at 11:02 a. m.)

Mr. KUNZIG. Mr. Carroll Barnes.

(Representative Donald L. Jackson returned to the hearing room at this point.)

Mr. VELDE. In the testimony you are about to give before this subcommittee do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BARNES. I do.

TESTIMONY OF CARROLL BARNES, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, LAWRENCE SPEISER

Mr. KUNZIG. Would you state, sir, your full name for the record and spell it, please?

Mr. BARNES. Carroll Barnes, C-a-r-r-o-l-1 B-a-r-n-e-s.

Mr. KUNZIG. I see that you are represented by counsel. Would counsel please state his name once again for the record?

Mr. SPEISER. Lawrence Speiser. I am the staff counsel of the American Civil Liberties Union of north California; my address is 503 Market Street, San Francisco.

Mr. KUNZIG. Mr. Barnes, would you kindly state your present address, sir?

Mr. BARNES. 1027 9th Street, Oakland.

Mr. KUNZIG. You were born when and where, sir?

Mr. BARNES. I was born July 20, 1906, in what is now the State of Oklahoma.

Mr. KUNZIG. Are you presently employed?

Mr. BARNES. I am not.

Mr. KUNZIG. Yesterday in sworn testimony before this committee, Mr. Barnes, you were identified by Charles Blodgett as a member of the Alameda County committee of the Communist Party. Have you ever been a member of such committee?