Admiral RODGERS. I am happy to correct, or I should say clarify, that. One company, American Export, has a scholarship loan program. As you know, several of the companies now contribute a thousand dollars per ship to union management type of schools, but American Export and BMO decided to take this thousand dollars and instead of setting up their own school to set up scholarships at the various maritime academies so that they use these training facilities which are in exist

ence.

It only amounts to a handful. I think they have not much more than about 25 across the five academies. So that, while there are a few of them, I think we need to keep this in proper perspective. This is not the kind of thing that any youngster can go and get.

Mr. HATHAWAY. Later on this week we will have some testimony from the unions with respect to the union schools that are being operated.

I have not seen their testimony yet, but I anticipate that what they are going to say, from what they said before, is that they think they are doing the job and the additional funds for the maritime academies are not necessary.

Would you like to comment on that?

Admiral RODGERS. I would be very happy to. I am not here to say they are not doing a job. From all I know they undoubtedly are contributing licensed officers to the industry. If they pass the Coast Guard examination, they obviously have the knowledge necessary to do that kind of job.

I would like to comment, as I did before, as to the value of having the better educated, better trained, better disciplined individual coming in, in sufficient quantities to establish a standard in the industry which is extremely important and valuable.

I do think that we should keep the door open for inputs from other sources, but by having some higher standard this will tend to bring the standard of the industry up.

I would like to read a statement, incidentally, from my first page here. This happened to be contributed by Admiral Will, who spoke at the academy a few years ago and said:

A steamship company assumes that a maritime academy graduate knows seamanship or knows engineering. It is what else he knows that determines his value to the company and his ultimate achievement in his profession. Graduation from a maritime academy should be prima facie evidence that a man has the aptitude, the knowledge, the skill, and pride to succeed as a ship's officer, as a management executive, as a labor leader, or in a host of allied occupations.

This comes through all the time, that they expect for the new type of ship that is coming into the picture a person who is more capable of doing more than just the minimum kinds of things to operate a specific piece of equipment.

Mr. HATHAWAY. So that you offer other courses.

Admiral RODGERS. I think we are a great national asset to the country. Yes, sir; I would like to say that our graduates receive their Naval Reserve commissions and the graduates of these other schools do not qualify because of the limited nature of their education.

Mr. HATHAWAY. Are your liberal arts courses tied into the professional courses?

Admiral RODGERS. Yes; very definitely. As part of our curriculum we make every effort to integrate. For instance, in the junior year we

have a requirement for a research paper from our students and this is part of their more liberal education. These individual students have to pick out some new thing in the industry.

The individual student who won the contest last year happened to write on the new types of steels in ship construction. Others write on new boiler designs, propeller designs, new types of cargo handling, and they turn in a minimum 2,000-word report which is graded for technical content, report writing, and as part of their English. Incidentally, the three best reports are selected and turned over to Cornell Maritime Press, and the best one is published. We are trying to tie these things together and keep them oriented to what is going on in the industry and grade them on English and report writing and things of that nature.

Mr. HATHAWAY. So that everything they get is tied into their occupation?

Admiral RODGERS. Our whole objective is to turn out the best possible maritime officer, and it is all oriented to make sure that when he gets aboard the ship he not only knows the technical job, but can write reports and represent the company or the country and knows enough about personnel relationships and managing people that he can do that kind of job, too.

Mr. HATHAWAY. I think you may have answered this in answer to a question posed by Mr. Watkins, but the table shown yesterday by Mr. Blackwell indicates that the Maine Maritime Academy has the lowest per-pupil cost.

Admiral RODGERS. Yes; as you go through those figures you will notice that the cost of turning out a student at Maine Maritime Academy is roughly $1,200 less than the next maritime academy. This is all due to the fact, frankly, that our salaries are just too low. They are not competitive at all.

I am trying to employ people with masters' and chief engineers' licenses to teach on a full year-round cycle, and incidentally I am offering $8,500 to $9,000, and he is able to get $15,000 in several other places, and this individual not only teaches a normal academic year, but has to go on a cruise and stand watches or be a training officer. He has to stand a watch at the academy as security officer and be fully integrated to a year-round program.

What is happening is that I am having a terrible time in recruiting and holding onto the type of officers I need to build the academy. This is why I am here. This is why we need this extra help.

Mr. HATHAWAY. You use the ship, too, for promotion purposes-the training ship you have so that it is of some indirect benefit to the Federal Government?

Admiral RODGERS. We started something which I think is rather unique in the use of the training ship, and I must admit that our motives were ulterior, and when I say that we were trying to impress the State legislature because we had to build up our image and State support, and what we have been doing is utilizing our ship in promotion of foreign trade.

In every foreign port we go into there is an effort made to bring the people aboard to see these things, to pass out literature. There are representatives of various companies who have displays on this ship as well as members of our State department of agriculture, the

department of economic development, who set up luncheons and invite them to the ship for these functions, and as a result of this there has been a great deal of trade stimulation. I think this is one of the kinds of things that a maritime academy can do with a very fine ship on our cruises and make another kind of contribution to our national economy. Mr. HATHAWAY. How old is the ship you have?

Admiral RODGERS. Our ship happens to be 30 years old this year. Mr. HATHAWAY. Could you use a new ship?

Admiral RODGERS. I don't think there is any question about that fact.

Mr. HATHAWAY. Are there any available that you know of that you might suggest to us?

Admiral RODGERS. We have been going through this drill for a few years, and unfortunately you need a ship which can carry the number of students, roughly 300 or so, as a minimum, and so, therefore, it has to be of configuration that has passenger space and has sufficient cargo handling gear for training purposes.

At the present time there are some ships. I can think of three very desirable ones, the Argentina and Brazil and the Atlantic, which are lying idle. There are some Navy ships becoming available due to the layup of some of our fleet, and there are some reserve ships.

I would hope that we might take a look and recognize that we should do something which would have a long-range value, rather than taking a 25-year-old ship and then spend some money and do a lot of work and knowing that maybe you are going to get 4 or 5 years out of it.

If you take something like the Atlantic, you know it allows you to do all these things.

Mr. HATHAWAY. And the maintenance cost would be less.

Admiral RODGERS. I think the maintenance cost to the Federal Government would be less.

In the case of the Atlantic, I happen to know that the owner has a mortgage of $3 million which it would require the Federal Government to pick up, and then he would leave the key under the mat at that point.

Mr. HATHAWAY. I have just one final question, Mr. Chairman.

There has been some objection to the second part of H.R. 8785 that puts a minimum of $600, but there is no ceiling, and it makes it an open-ended appropriation. Would you have objection to putting a ceiling of $1,000?

Admiral RODGERS. NO.

The reason I think that this was worded that way was because we have had the difficulty in the last couple of years where about April we would be told that there was not sufficient money, and therefore probably no payments to the students in May and June, and only through, frankly, whatever pressures we could muster up were we able to suddenly come up with the money necessary.

In trying to overcome that feature, and establish a firm, required figure, plus the fact that in looking at other kinds of programs in Federal Academies, where they establish cadet wages, they have taken into consideration the trend in the economy, and have made adjustments in those wages to take care of inflationary trends, so that I think the minimum was established as something which would allow us to

provide some kind of inflationary measure to it year by year and say, "The economy is up around 4 percent, and maybe we ought to apply that."

On the other hand, as you discussed with Dr. Limouze, by putting a minimum of $600 and a maximum of $1,000, I think this allows that flexibility and judgment to be exercised, and this is perfectly fine and very acceptable.

Mr. HATHAWAY. Thank you very much, Admiral.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DOWNING. Mr. Hanna.

Mr. HANNA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I appreciate your testimony very much, Admiral. It does appear to me that you have indicated in your testimony something about where I think the maritime academy should be going.

I am convinced that the academy's choice of curriculum should be basic and look ahead, and not behind. I don't think we need to recapture the past, nor is it necessary that we should maintain the present, but I think we have to anticipate and participate in the future.

Would you agree with that?

Admiral RODGERS. I certainly would, sir; and in that respect we can see a trend toward automation coming in. We have to do something. This means more electronics equipment. This means that you have to get equipment for your laboratories.

This is all part of the justification for the increased funds.

There are many things, preparing for the future, which require expenditures, and we just don't have them at the present time.

Mr. HANNA. It seems to me that in a time of change, which we are actually in, a broader perspective is always needed, because you don't know what the boy is really going to be doing. You have to give him a broad enough base so that he can shift with the change, and this is a very important ingredient, I think, in the input of education at this time, under these conditions.

The other thing is that I think you need a broader horizon so that a man can relate what he is doing to something in a total scheme, and a total activity, the importance or value of which is recognized both by himself and other people, so that he sees his role in a limited sense related to something which really gives him value judgments.

I know that when I went to work the first time, just before World War II, in an airplane factory, they were just beginning to realize that if you get a guy in a spot where all he does is put 16 rivets at one particular point as the plane moves in, you don't get much motivation. So they took the guys through the whole line, and showed them exactly what this whole thing was about, and what it looked like when it was all through, and then he could go back to his 16 rivets and have some sense that he was making a contribution that really amounted to something.

Admiral RODGERS. Exactly.

Mr. HANNA. I think once you get that sense, you really have a different type of motivation, and different type of people.

So relating to what the total activity is, giving him a broader perspective, so that he feels that he can shift his role a little if times require it, would seem to me to make a better type of student.

Admiral RODGERS. I agree wholeheartedly, and I think this is what the industry needs.

A certain number of these young men, after serving aboard the ship, now have the capacity to move into something else, whether it be unions or management, in the industry, and they are going to carry this broader perspective, and it is going to help us in a very vital rebuilding of this industry.

Mr. HANNA. I really believe that we cannot overlook the fact that we don't operate in our own ballpark, so to speak. We are part of an international game, in shipping.

Admiral RODGERS. That is right.

Mr. HANNA. And we have to see our merchant marine, including its manpower, in competition with what is available in manpower throughout the world.

I have been very much impressed, Mr. Chairman, with some of the manpower that some of our competitors have in places like Norway and other places where the choices are much more limited than ours are. It does seem to me that if you are going to have an intelligent kind of a Maritime Academy operation in the United States, that you would move that Academy to put the United States more on the frontier of the new developing technology of the ocean, as I believe the other gentlemen talked about, one of the companies seeing itself as an ocean operator, and not just a shipping company.

We have always been outstanding, I think, in either developing technology or applying other people's development of technology.

It has always struck me as rather interesting that over a hundred years ago Mr. Babbage, an Englishman, developed the computer in England, and did not do a cotton picking thing with it, and in the United States it became a big industry. That kind of tells us something about what our role really should be.

When I think about the possibilities of the breakthroughs that are now coming, I think that in the forefront of all of this ought to be the Maritime Academy.

Do you agree with that?

Admiral RODGERS. I do, wholeheartedly, sir.

Mr. HANNA. There is another thing that appears to me, and that is that there is a whole new economics occurring, and your people ought to me well aware of this, being where they are, and being what they are. Let me mention just a few that I noticed.

You mentioned, I think, the attitude of looking at the ship itself in terms of its life cycle cost, not just how much does it cost to get it down the ways, but what is its life cycle, what is its efficiency likely to be over the life cycle.

That is why we have these subsidized lines, because nobody took that kind of look, and I think we are subsidizing some horrible situations. We helped this boy die in the engineroom because we subsidized to keep that kind of condition alive. I think that is terrible.

I think this new economics ought to be looked at, and we ought to be more critical about where we are putting our money in the long run. Another thing I have noticed is the shifting market economy. I think the two canals have brought this out, when you have had the shutdown of the Suez Canal, and everybody said that is going to ruin the whole situation on oil, and it did no such thing. It just changed the emphasis on how the merchant marine in oil would operate.