damage on the lower Tennessee River and help to decrease stages on the Ohio and Mississippi at Paducah and Cairo.

EFFECT OF GILBERTSVILLE DAM ON FLOOD CONDITIONS

The present means of reducing flood loss on the lower Mississippi will be the Gilbertsville Reservoir. The Ohio River is the chief factor in the Mississippi River flood and the Tennessee is the largest tributary of the Ohio. The Gilbertsville project, located within 25 miles of the Ohio River, will influence flood flows from practically the entire Tennessee River Basin. The dam is situated within 1 day of water travel from Cairo, and for this reason can be regulated closely to meet demands at that point. This project could be operated so as to reduce stream flood heights at Cairo by at least 2 feet. This Gilbertsville Reservoir will be one of the largest so far constructed—it will be over 180 miles long, and will have an area of very nearly 300,000 acres. Mr. ELWELL. When you say "one of the largest constructed," you mean in the system or the country?

Colonel PARKER. In the country.

Mr. ELWELL. Larger than Boulder Dam?

Colonel PARKER. I don't believe it is comparable to Boulder; no. The thing that needs emphasizing in connection with Gilbertsville is the very definite and accurate way in which this reservoir will be operated. Flood peaks at Cairo on the Ohio can be predicted 5 or 6 days in advance by means of the excellent system of observation which has been set up by the Army Engineers. Knowing in advance what height can be expected at Cairo, and knowing the effect which the Gilbertsville Reservoir can be made to produce at Cairo, it is possible to wait until the actual level of Cairo will be within 2% feet of the predicted peak and to then close the flood gates at Gilbertsville the necessary amount to prevent the level at Cairo rising much above that point.

That is a very direct and accurate means of operation, and involves no complications and long-stage predictions. For that reason we expect that Gilbertsville will be very effective in regulating stages at Cairo.

Representative WOLVERTON. Colonel, did I understand you to say that the reservoir at Gilbertsville would be 180 miles in length? Colonel PARKER. Yes, sir.

Representative WOLVERTON. How wide?

Colonel PARKER. It will vary from perhaps 2 miles, somewhat more than 2 miles in places, to the normal width of the river channel at the upper end of the reservoir.

Representative WOLVERTON. How many thousands of acres is that reservoir contemplating using? I thought that you said 300,000.

Colonel PARKER. I wanted to give you the exact figure, sir. The area at about the normal operating level, where the reservoir will be operated when it is not being used to control flood, will be about 165,000 acres. At the extreme height possible-that is, the top of the dam, which would be reached only in extreme emergencies-the area would be 312,000 acres.

Representative WOLVERTON. What is the cost of that land to the T. V. A.?

Colonel PARKER. The cost of the land, sir?

Representative WOLVERTON. Yes, sir; that will have to be taken for reservoir purposes?

Colonel PARKER. The total estimated cost of reservoir lands is about $22,000,000.

Representative WOLVERTON. What are the values of the crops and products that are being raised annually on that land?

Colonel PARKER. I can't inform you on that.

Representative WOLVERTON. Doesn't the T. V. A. take into consideration that important item, namely, the amount that is being taken out of production?

Colonel PARKER. We have made some very careful studies of the agricultural aspects of these reservoir takings, and it has been concluded in general that where it has been decided to flood such land, that the value of such flooding will be greater than the original value for agricultural purposes.

Representative WOLVERTON. That is a general conclusion. I am asking questions that may have some bearing on the final figures, but I am trying to get them in, in a way that I think would be helpful.

At the time this investigation started, every appropriate time I have made inquiries as to the amount of products that had been raised, annually, on the lands that had become reservoir sites, and I haven't gotten that figure with one single reservoir site as yet.

Now, if the T. V. A. takes into consideration the losses that are to be prevented by flood control, it seems to me that we ought to have some figures to have before us that would show the amount of loss annually in production from these fertile fields, because the testimony has been that these lowlands are the most fertile part of the territory. Now, I am interested in knowing what is the annual production of crops on that three-hundred-odd thousand acres of land. Do you have any such figures?

Colonel PARKER. We have no exact figures on that area; no, sir. Representative WOLVERTON. Do you have any approximate figures? Mr. ELWELL. May I ask a question? Is there any department of the T. V. A. that makes such an estimate of losses with regard to reservoir lands to be acquired?

Colonel PARKER. The land use division has made such estimates, but I don't have them here.

Mr ELWELL. Is that division within the engineering department? Colonel PARKER. No, sir.

Mr. ELWELL. Could those estimates be obtained by you?

Colonel PARKER. It would take several days to obtain them, I guess.

Mr. ELWELL. Do you think, Mr. Wolverton, that we ought to request that that be made?

Representative WOLVERTON. Well, just as I said, I have asked this same question with reference to every reservoir site that has been testified to before this committee by any witness who appeared before us, and I haven't gotten the information from anyone yet.

Mr. ELWELL. Colonel Parker, would you take upon yourself to obtain all available estimates and submit them to the committee?

Colonel PARKER. Yes, sir; I will do that. May I make a partial answer to that same question? We have made rather complete analyses of that question on other reservoirs.

Representative WOLVERTON. I will be glad to have that information. Colonel PARKER. May I make just a general observation about the thing? We find that in general there are a great many benefits to the entire community in addition to those which we set forth as directly resulting from a three-purpose project. These benefits, in general, if we are to consider detrimental effects of the loss of agricultural lands, we should also consider a great many other beneficial effects which result from the construction of these reservoirs.

Representative WOLVERTON. There is no doubt about that, and it doesn't seem that we have much difficulty getting that side of the picture presented to us, but I am asking for the other side of the picture, as to what destruction of fertile ground, fertile lands, results from the building of these reservoirs? As I understand the purpose of the reservoir, it is to provide flood control. Well, the floods that we are trying to control only come at spasmodic intervals, and there is no annual continuity about it, and it may be with you one year and it may not happen again for 30 years, and I think that if we are going to get the whole picture we would have to give figures that have some relation to an annual basis-that is, both as to productivity and as to losses from floods, both sides of the picture.

Now, may I ask, with reference to this 310,000 acres to be destroyed, so far as fertile production is concerned, crop production is concerned, what was the loss last year or at any previous year, which we could use as an illustration, as the result of floods, on those particular lands? In other words, what I am trying to get at is this: You are speaking now permanently flooding these lands. Now, when has there been any flood that has affected these 310,000 acres?

Colonel PARKER. Well, during the floods which have occurred during our own construction period, the bottom lands throughout that entire Gilbertsville stretch have been under water, that is just during the last 3 years.

Representative WOLVERTON. How often and how much, and how much property damage results?

Colonel PARKER. And much of this reservoir land has been flooded every summer and crops destroyed in the bottom.

Representative WOLVERTON. How much?

Colonel PARKER. I would be very glad to produce figures on that if you wish me to.

Representative WOLVERTON. I certainly would like to see the figures that would show to what extent floods have damaged property, or crops, and how expensive over this vast area, that is being permanently flooded, as a result of the building of these structures.

Senator SCHWARTZ. Did I understand you to say to counsel a moment ago that this information that Mr. Wolverton is asking for is not within your functions, the engineering functions?

Colonel PARKER. It is not entirely within them; no, sir.

Senator SCHWARTZ. Do we understand that someone will be on the stand before we get through, who could answer that question, if there is an answer to it?

Colonel PARKER. Yes-let me amplify it just a little more, though, and that is that this area above the operating level which constitutes the majority of this area, that is the upper 15 feet of this reservoir which will be reserved for flood control use, we hope to be able to work out some method whereby a substantial amount of that area, inasmuch as it will only be flooded at intervals of several years, the upper portions of it perhaps only every 15 or 20 years, we hope to work out some method whereby a large part of that can be retained in cultivation, that is under study at the present time; and I think that that is a very proper consideration and one which we are giving considerable attention to at the present time.

Representative WOLVERTON. Then you do contemplate that some of this land will continue to be used?

Colonel PARKER. That is a possibility.

Representative WOLVERTON. Do you contemplate that it is going to be destroyed by floods?

Colonel PARKER. If it is only flooded once in 15 or 20 years, by a flood which rises-I mean, speaking now of the upper portions of the reservoir, by floods which only occur during the winter and spring months, the nongrowing season, it may be possible to raise crops on that land during the summer months.

Representative WOLVERTON. If that is the case, why do you go to the expense of buying the land? It is still going to be subject to floods. How does that stop flood damage in any place else in the district?

Colonel PARKER. I am speaking of the upper part of the reservoir which will not be flooded except by floods resulting from flood storage. Representative WOLVERTON. That is what I have in mind. Now, you are not doing anything that is going to stop the possibility of floods on that land, and what is the purpose of buying it? Why not let it stay there in the original hands? What do you gain by taking it over by the Government, at great expense?

Colonel PARKER. If we are going to use that reservoir for the storage of floods, that is to control floods for the benefit of the lower valley, it will be necessary at rare intervals to flood the land and any flooding of the land which is privately owned would result in damages, either real or claimed, so that it would be necessary to acquire some control by the Government over that land.

Senator FRAZIER. It would be cheaper for the Government to pay for the land than to pay for the damages when you do flood it.

Colonel PARKER. Yes; it may be possible to buy that land and either lease it or sell it with a provision for a flood right to people who can farm it.

Representative WOLVERTON. I hope you see the reason that I am making this inquiry, because if the past record of flood damage in that particular property isn't commensurate with the cost of the property, and the taking of it or the possible taking of it out of production, that presents an entirely different picture. What I am try

g to do is get facts from which we can judge as to the propriety of caking in all of this 310,000 acres.

Of course, if we are just going to let it pass with an expression of judgment and without any inquiry, that is another matter, but I am interested in knowing what is the damage that has been done to that particular valley, that will be saved as a result of this vast expenditure of funds and the taking of a vast expanse of fertile lands out of production. There must be records either in your department, or in a Government department, or Department of War, or some other department, that will give us the figures which will show what damage has been done in that particular locality as a result of floods and how frequently the floods have occurred, and how intense they have been or how expensive they have been, and that information, if it is available, I think it would be helpful to have it part of the record.

Mr. ELWELL. Mr. Chairman, may I ask Mr. Wolverton-I didn't quite understand your question-do you refer to the locality of Gilbertsville, or the Valley?

Representative WOLVERTON. Well, as I understand this witness, he says that as a result of the building of the Gilbertsville Dam, there will be created a reservoir 180 miles in length, that would necessitate the taking of some 312,000 acres. Now, it is that area covered by the taking of that 312,000 acres, that I am anxious to know to what extent that particular area has ever suffered from floods in the past, how frequently, and what amount.

Mr. ELWELL. Do you know whether such studies have been made of past floods in that area?

Colonel PARKER. Yes.

Mr. ELWELL. And you will furnish that information to the committee?

Colonel PARKER. Yes, sir.

Representative WOLVERTON. And such studies as will show the value of crops or other products raised annually in the same area. Could you tell how many families will be affected as a result of taking over of these lands?

Colonel PARKER. I think that we will have that information, sir, in a minute.

Representative WOLVERTON. If is more convenient for your to give that in connection with this other information that I am requesting, I have no objection to you giving it later.

Colonel PARKER. We have information of that character on all of the projects. It is just a question of its availability, that is all.

Representative WOLVERTON. I want the information in the best form possible, and if you are not in a position to give it this morning, I am not insisting that you do so.

Colonel PARKER. Those are very vital statistics.
Representative WOLVERTON. I know that they are.

Senator FRAZIER. The great value of these reservoirs is to protect the floods down farther, down the river, isn't it?

Colonel PARKER. This particular Gilbertsville Dam, its value lies in its protection of the valley of the lower Mississippi, below Cairo, and an estimate of the benefits resulting from its use would include an estimate of these benefits down stream, necessarily.