Representative WOLVERTON. Are those terminals leased to barge lines or are they operated by the Government?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. I think some are leased and some are operated. Representative WOLVERTON. Do you know of any place else except on the Mississippi River? All that I have knowledge of in our part of the country are built by the municipalities.

Mr. ALLDREDGE. I don't know of any other.

Representative WOLVERTON. My own city of Camden has expended between three and five million dollars in building terminals. Mr. ALLDREDGE. River terminals or ocean terminals?

Representative WOLVERTON. River terminals. We are not on the ocean. Do you know of any other illustration outside of what you have referred to on the Mississippi River?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. Oh, we have them on the Warrior at Birmingport, Ala., and possibly at the lower end of the river at Mobile. Representative WOLVERTON. Are you sure of that?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. I know there is one at Birmingport, and there is one at Holt, Ala., near Tuscaloosa.

Representative WOLVERTON. Is it owned and operated by a Federal agency?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. Yes; the Federal Barge Line.

Representative WOLVERTON. Is that under lease from the Govern

ment?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. No; I think the Federal Barge Lines built those terminals and are operating them.

Representative WOLVERTON. Where did you decide the terminals should be, the major terminals?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. The major ones?
Representative WOLVERTON. Yes.

Mr. ALLDREDGE. Knoxville, Chattanooga, Guntersville, Decatur; the Tri-Cities, which are Florence, Sheffield, and Tuscumbia; Johnsonville, and Paducah.

Representative WOLVERTON. Then you would not provide any terminals from Paducah until you got up in the neighborhood of Chattanooga?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. Oh, no, sir!

Representative WOLVERTON. Where would they be?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. Well, Johnsonville, the Tri-Cities, Decatur, Guntersville.

Representative WOLVERTON. How far is Johnsonville from Padu

cah?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. It is about a hundred miles.

Representative WOLVERTON. Five hundred?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. A hundred, 100.

Representative WOLVERTON. Then how far is your next one? Mr. ALLDREDGE. About 156 miles. Now, you are speaking of major terminals.

Representative WOLVERTON. That is right.

Mr. ALLDREDGE. I stated there would be minor terminals intermediate.

EXTENT OF TRAFFIC ON TENNESSEE RIVER

Representative WOLVERTON. Yes; I have that in mind. What traffic moves now on the river that would need the facilities of a terminal?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. Public terminal?

Representative WOLVERTON. Of the kind you have been testifying

about.

Mr. ALLDREDGE. Well, on the lower river, the forest products. They would need a terminal. I don't know whether they would need a public terminal or not. But that kind of traffic you are speaking about is not going to move until we have the terminals; it can't.

Representative WOLVERTON. I was going to follow that up when I had finished with the other questions.

Mr. ALLDREDGE. It would not be moving without terminals. Representative WOLVERTON. Is there any traffic that requires public terminal facilities, moving on the river?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. There is some pig iron moving that is using some private facilities.

Representative WOLVERTON. Pig iron?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. Yes.

Representative WOLVERTON. Is that used in connection with the construction of the dams?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. Oh, no, sir; not pig iron.

Representative WOLVERTON. How much pig iron moved over the river last year and between what points?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. That is just beginning to move at the rate of about 2,500 tons a month. It originates at Birmingham, gets on the river at Sheffield, and then moves down the Tennessee River to some point on the opposite bank of the Ohio River, a point in Illinois.

Representative WOLVERTON. How many barges does it take to carry that 2,500 tons a month?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. I think those are 300-ton barges. I think there are about eight.

Representative WOLVERTON. You think there are about eight barges of pig iron moving over the Tennessee River at the present time. Now, what else?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. You want to know what the traffic moving on the river is?

Representative WOLVERTON. Yes.

Mr. ALLDREDGE. I have filed that as an exhibit.

Representative WOLVERTON. We have something like 500 exhibits, and you can read it to us quicker than we can pick it out.

Mr. ALLDREDGE. I hope you don't expect traffic that necessarily requires a terminal to move until we get the terminal. Traffic can't move freely until we get the channel completed there. It is simply beginning to move.

Representative WOLVERTON. The 2,500 tons of pig iron do not indicate that needs any terminal, because it goes to some point on the Ohio.

Mr. ALLDREDGE. How would you expect to get it on the Tennessee River by railroad?

Representative WOLVERTON. I thought it came in by some river barge. Is that right? How are you doing it now?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. Some private facilities that exist there.

Representive WOLVERTON. Have you got the traffic broken down into commodities?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. Yes. Now, what year do you want?
Representative WOLVERTON. Let's take the present year.

Mr. ALLDREDGE. I can't give it to you for 1938, I can give it to you for 1937.

Representative WOLVERTON. All right, we will take 1937.

Mr. ALLDREDGE. 209,943 tons of forest products, requiring 31,036,137 ton-miles of service; sand, gravel, and stone, 1,041,870 tons, requiring 14,176,267 ton-miles of service.

Representative WOLVERTON. Now, is that sand and gravel?
Mr. ALLDREDGE. Sand, gravel, and stone.

Representative WOLVERTON. Is that taken out of the river by the T. V. A. for its construction?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. Not all of it; but it is a very short haul.
Representative WOLVERTON. What is the average haul?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. Ten or fifteen miles would be the average.
Representative WOLVERTON. Between what point?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. I have it in a graph here for 1936. I cannot give you the exact points for 1937, but between miles 640 and 660, between miles 620 and 630, between miles 560 and 570, between miles 430 and 480.

Representative WOLVERTON. Mr. Alldredge, that doesn't give me very much help if you have to give it by mileage. Haven't you got the points on the Tennessee River by name?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. It has just been moved up out of the bank or out of the bed of the river at some unnamed point.

Representative WOLVERTON. Where is the great bulk of that being used, isn't it going as a matter of fact into the construction work of the Tennessee Valley Authority?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. Well, some of it.

Representative WOLVERTON. I say isn't the major portion of it? Mr. ALLDREDGE. Probably half.

Representative WOLVERTON. I have seen figures that indicate far more than that.

Mr. ALLDREDGE. I am afraid your figures are not reliable.

Representative WOLVERTON. I am hopeful that I will get what the accurate figures are. In other words, the sand and gravel that is moving for part of a construction program will cease when the construction program is finished. You would hardly speak of it as traffic on the river that is to be considered in fixing terminals.

Mr. ALLDREDGE. I can enlighten you, if you want the percentage of total traffic moving on the river that is being used for Government purposes.

Representative WOLVERTON. I will take it in whatever way you have it that will give us any light on the subject. If that doesn't cover it, I will ask some other questions that I think will.

Mr. ALLDREDGE. In 1932 it was seven-tenths of 1 percent; in 1933, 21.7; 1934, 26 percent; 1935, 52 percent; 1936, 54 percent; 1937, 21.7 percent.

Representative WOLVERTON. Well, that table that you have just read indicates that there was a very small amount prior to the inauguration of the T. V. A. construction program?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. Used for Government purposes.

Representative WOLVERTON. Yes.

Mr. ALLDREDGE. That is true.

Representative WOLVERTON. Now, suppose you proceed and give me an analysis of the commodities that are passing over the Tennessee River at the present time.

You doubtless have sand and gravel, and you have mentioned forest products.

Mr. ALLDREDGE. Cement, 74,191 tons, requiring 6,141,943 ton-miles of service.

Representative WOLVERTON. That is practically all for construction purposes in the work that is now being carried on by the T. V. A., is that right?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. It possibly is, but a great deal of cement has moved in times past for other than T. V. A. purposes.

Representative WOLVERTON. How much cement was used in 1932 or any other year, have you any data?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. 6,421 tons moved in 1934.

Representative WOLVERTON. There is quite a difference between 6,400 and 74,000.

Mr. ALLDREDGE. I am not denying the T. V. A. is using the river for transportation of its own material. I think it is, I think it ought to.

Only part of it is temporary. If you will look at the trend of traffic during the construction of Wilson Dam and then in the years following you will see that the total traffic did not go down after Wilson was completed. They simply found other markets for their product and went ahead and moved them.

Representative WOLVERTON. All I can figure is how much of what is now passing over the river is for construction purposes of the T. V. A. and how much is general.

Mr. ALLDREDGE. I gave you cement. Miscellaneous is 50,348 tons, requiring 3,978,429 ton-miles of service; farm products, 818 tons. Representative WOLVERTON. Eight hundred and eighteen?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. Yes.

The greatest tonnage that has ever moved on the Tennessee River was at a period when there was no Government construction going

on.

Representative WOLVERTON. When was that?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. That was between the years 1925 and 1932.
Representative WOLVERTON. How do you account for that?
Mr. ALLDREDGE. How do I acount for it?

Representative WOLVERTON. Yes.

Mr. ALLDREDGE. Well, just that people who used the river had good business, and they moved the freight on the river.

Representative WOLVERTON. Does that indicate to you that since 1925 improved highways and truck service has taken over a great deal of transportation of commodities and it has therefore left the river? Mr. ALLDREDGE. No, sir.

Representative WOLVERTON. Haven't you found in your studies that improved highways and truck service has gone far to reduce travel on rivers?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. No, sir, Mr. Wolverton. Trucks are not always competitors of river traffic. They frequently supplement it and increase the traffic.

Representative WOLVERTON. When we were in Knoxville I had a conversation with a businessman there, just in a social way, who had been engaged in business there for a good many years, and he gave me his experience in his line of business, how that a few years ago practically all that he received came in on barge but at the present time it was seldom if ever that anything came to him by barge from the Tennessee River, that it all came by truck.

Mr. ALLDREDGE. Up to Knoxville?
Representative WOLVERTON. Yes.

Mr. ALLDREDGE. If you are familiar with the condition of the river you could understand why he didn't get many barges.

Representative WOLVERTON. Well, he did previously.

Mr. ALLDREDGE. Once in a while he might have got some. The controlling depth of the upper reaches of the river are only about 1 foot.

Representative WOLVERTON. He said it had changed to trucks.

Mr. ALLDREDGE. Oh, sometimes, of course, some of the traffic, river traffic, would be diverted to trucks, but at other times the trucks would simply help the river by supplementing its service. They are not all competitors.

Representative WOLVERTON. You could say that at sometimes trucks supplemented railroad service?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. They certainly do.

Representative WOLVERTON. And yet it is an apparent fact the railroads have suffered as a result of the great increase in the use of trucks for the transportation of commodities?

Mr. ALLDREDGE. Well, if you would read the arguments of the American Automobile Association you might not be so positive that the railroads have been hurt by the automotive business.

Representative WOLVERTON. I am rather convinced that trucks have taken over a good deal of the traffic that otherwise would have gone to the railroads.

Mr. ALLDREDGE. I am, too.

Representative WOLVERTON. And I didn't know that anybody had any different view about it. I know that, or I thought that it was so apparent that it was accepted by everyone.

Mr. ALLDREDGE. That all truck operations are competitors of the railroads?

Representative WOLVERTON. No; I haven't said that.

Mr. ALLDREDGE. Well, if they are not competitors, they aren't taking business away from them.

Representative WOLVERTON. But the use of trucks had kept considerable traffic which otherwise would go to the railroads, away from them.