Mr. EVANS. Well, let me ask you about the use-which is one of the things that we have been investigating of the military on routine training flights in spotting unusual activity and reporting to local and State and Federal law enforcement officials or to some one branch, at least, of unusual activities on the coastline in the ships and planes, sighting of planes in rural areas, and the communication that is available to the military. What is your opinion if that could be worked out so that we could fully utilize the facilities and the equipment that we already have? What kind of an effect do you think that would have on the smuggling operation?

Mr. BARROW. Well, if they would really do it, I would think it would have a chilling effect on many of the smugglers. I don't think that all of them would stop or even most of them would stop. But I think you would probably catch some more of them. And I think it would probably make them a good deal more nervous about what they were doing.

Mr. EVANS. Do you think that when people like Gilmore-or is it Gilstrap?

Mr. BARROW. Gillespie.

Mr. EVANS. Others like that are caught and convicted and sent off for a period of time, does that have any effect on the other smugglers at all? Why do the people get out of the business that were out of it according to them when you talked to them? Had they made all they wanted to make?

Mr. BARROW. Well, the problem that I have is that I am not really sure they are out of the business. Obviously, if I were a smuggler and I were talking to a newspaper reporter, I don't know why in the world I would do it to begin with, but if I had, I would not tell him that I was still smuggling marihuana.

Some of them did say that they had become frightened by the increased belligerence of authority in Colombia. When they were doing it, you could, they said, fly right over the helicopter bases down there and wave at the lieutenants if you paid your $10,000.

Mr. EVANS. So that the effort being made by the Colombian Government is one of the reasons cited?

Mr. BARROW. Well, yes.

Mr. EVANS. If a man was telling the truth.

Mr. BARROW. If the man is telling the truth. That is one of the reasons cited. I suspect that he was not being completely candid, and I suspect what is going on in Colombia has not changed that much over 2 or 3 years.

There has been a lot of talk about increasing the penalties for marihuana smuggling. And when I was talking with some of the smugglers, that was one thing I asked them about. And their reactions varied. Some of them were quite hostile and said:

Well, you know, if they are trying to send me to jail for 100 years, I am going to come out shooting or I am going to rig my plane so that it blows up when DEA tries to open the door or I am going to try and do various other things.

I don't know how much of that is true, and I don't think they would fight with a major agency like DEA, GBI, something like that, that came well armed. I don't think that they would probably be able to kill a lot of sheriff's deputies in south Georgia.

There was one agricultural inspector less than a year ago who was kidnapped and murdered, and I don't know that anyone has been caught. But it was probably done by marihuana smugglers. It is thought it was done by marihuana smugglers.

Mr. EVANS. You said there was a mixed reaction and, of course, I would imagine that anybody engaged in that type of activity would have a tendency to brag or bravado or whatever. Did you have anyone indicated it would make a difference as to whether or not they would continue in the trade, say, for instance, if there was a provision for mandatory minimum sentence of 10 years for marihuana smuggling? Mr. BARROW. Well, the very action I got, and the thing that I think would probably happen, is that they just wouldn't come back for the trial. I was talking to one guy who was in jail down in Florida. He had been involved in smuggling rum and caught coming across the Georgia line. I asked "What would you do if you had to serve 20 years?" He was serving a matter of months.

He said, "Well, I would have gotten out on bail, and you would never have seen me again."

Mr. EVANS. In effect, would that not stop that one individual from coming back into the area in your opinion?

Mr. BARROW. Yes.

Mr. EVANS. He would not have taken a chance on getting caught again, would you think, if he had this hanging over him?

Mr. BARROW. He might not have taken a chance on getting caught in that county or in that area again.

Mr. EVANS. Or in that State.

Mr. BARROW. Or in that State again. The problem, of course, is that he was what you call a mule, and you know, you can find plenty of people like them.

Mr. EVANS. So they are just an insignificant part of the top?

Mr. BARROW. Yes. He was insignificant, and I don't think it would have had a significant effect on drug trafficking. And it seems to me that many of the people that are arrested are like that.

Mr. EVANS. Mr. Coughlin, do you have any questions?

Mr. COUGHLIN. I could listen to you all day because I think you have provided us with very much of a first-hand insight into the problem. And I guess people always wonder about the utility of hearings

like this.

Let me just say that the Coast Guard happens to be in my appropriations subcommittee. And one thing I have gotten out of this certainly is to try and reexamine their mission in this because as I look at it, the posse comitatus doesn't apply to them since they are not a military service. And certainly, although their prime mission may be search and rescue, they have a very real function here that I am not sure they are performing.

Mr. BARROW. The impression that I got was that they were doing their business with what they had. I think they tell me they have something like two cutters down in Florida which is where they catch the smugglers. And I can understand that it would be difficult to catch everyone who is coming through those.

Plus I don't think they could do very much about air trafficking. Mr. COUGHLIN. But they do have an air function, too, in terms of their mission.

Mr. BARROW. Helicopters, yes, true. They might be able to use their helicopters and spot a few things. I guess the problem for them would be how do you tell a marihuana shrimp boat filled with marihuana, from a shrimp boat filled with shrimp? Obviously, if it is coming through the Windward Passage, you might be a little bit suspicious. Mr. COUGHLIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. EVANS. Mr. Brinkley?

Mr. BRINKLEY. Counsel tells me that there is pending a bail reform bill which might involve some constitutional issues relating to drug charges. And that might be one hope on the horizon. I just wanted to throw that in for the record.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. EVANS. Mr. Barrow, one other question. In discussing with the smugglers themselves their relative opinions of law enforcement, I got the impression that because of the inadequate equipment and so forth of local law enforcement that the smugglers had less fear, if they had fear of local people, than anybody else. What was the opinion that you found of the Drug Enforcement Administration and of the GBI?

Mr. BARROW. Well, they didn't have a very high opinion of the Drug Enforcement Administration. You would have to temper that with the understanding that if you or I were smuggling, you wouldn't like people who were after us.

Mr. EVANS. I am talking about from the standpoint of their capability to interdict the smugglers.

Mr. BARROW. The comment that I got was that the DEA was stupid. Now, you know, if they were complimentary of the DEA, I would say that the DEA had a problem.

Mr. EVANS. I understand that they would not be complimentary, but I am trying to establish whether or not they had any particular fear of any agency or whether it is like in the past when people would permit criticisms on the State level; they never wanted to commit a Federal crime because of the fear of the FBI at that time.

And I am just wondering if we have established any efficiency with the limited number of people we have on the Federal level in an effort to do something about the marihuana trafficking in the United States.

Mr. BARROW. Well, one thing that they do fear is they do seem to fear the undercover operations of DEA and agencies like that, DEA, and GBI. One reason that I think Gillespie got out of the marihuana smuggling business at least as long as he did is that he had attracted so much attention and was under so much surveillance from DEA. And he had become involved in a case where the DEA had really done a number on a number of his friends. DEA had actually gotten involved in helping them set up the marihuana deal and had taken pictures and tape recordings and everything like that and sent a couple of people off to jail for an awfully long time on that. And I think it frightened him very badly.

And I think that they are frightened of some of the undercover operations by the DEA. And I think every time they think about both of those, it has a chilling effect on them. So I think that what the DEA is doing under cover probably has a greater effect than anything that is being done to watch for shrimp boats or watch for airplanes or things like that.

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I don't think we are going to get lucky like the sheriff down in Ware County any more. I don't think they are going to use a public landing strip. They will have their own; and they will have people guarding it and you won't get near it.

Mr. COUGHLIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. EVANS. Mr. Barrow, I appreciate very much your coming down from Atlanta today. And your testimony has been most helpful. And hopefully, we will be able to make some changes that will improve our efforts as a result, partially, of your testimony. Thank you very much. Mr. BARROW. Thank you very much. I enjoyed it.

Mr. EVANS. Our next panel includes Mrs. Sue Rusche of DeKalb County who came down from Atlanta last night. We appreciate your being here.

Mr. Doug McLaughlin, assistant superintendent of the Bibb County Public Schools.

Mr. Howard Scott, project director of the Booker T. Washington Community Center.

If all of you would come forward please, I will ask you to raise your right hand.

[Mrs. Rusche, Mr. McLaughlin and Mr. Scott were sworn by Mr. Evans.]

Mr. EVANS. Before we start the testimony, I would like to advise that if you have a statement you would like to submit for the record, we would be glad to hear that statement. If you have additional information, the record is open for the inclusion of that information in the record.

I am going to ask Mr. Coughlin to take over the hearing at this time. I have to leave for a few minutes, and I know the testimony that Mrs. Rusche has is very vital to our hearings. And I expect the same is true of the other testimony. And I should be back in just a few minutes.

If you would have Mrs. Rusche proceed.

Mr. COUGHLIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

If you would like to proceed, Mrs. Rusche, with any statement you have or comments that you have, we will then follow with questions. TESTIMONY OF SUE RUSCHE, PRESIDENT, DE KALB FAMILIES IN ACTION, INC.

Mrs. RUSCHE. Before I start my prepared statement, I would like to point out to the committee that a number of different kinds of equipment that the smugglers use is advertised in High Times magazine and some of the other magazines that are widely distributed, such things as night vision goggles which enable you to fly an airplane or pilot a boat without lights at night, instruction manuals on how to get under the radar net if you are flying in from Colombia, et cetera. I would like to make that point and advise you to look through the magazines.

I want to thank you for the opportunity to testify here today. My name is Sue Rusche. I am president of a community organization called De Kalb Families in Action which was founded in November 1977. We organized in response to the discovery that a number of