This is just for an addition, isn't it-the revenue sharing plan? Mr. HEWITT. No. This takes the entire program that we had before and puts it into a new package, a new delivery system, to use the lingo, that has developed. The Department of Labor no longer has access in a discretionary way to most of the funds under the manpower training program,

Mr. BENNETT. You have got the biggest national organization in the field of labor, and you are used to running your work yourself. It certainly seems to me like you could get out opinions to people as to what they ought to do.

Mr. HEWITT. Indeed.

Mr. BOB WILSON. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if we could determine, in talking about CETA, who these prime sponsors are in most instances.

Do they have to be governmental bodies?

Mr. HEWITT. Yes, sir, the overwhelming majority.

Mr. BOB WILSON. What are the exceptions?

Mr. HEWITT. The only exceptions are in a few rural states-the concentrated employment programs that existed prior to the time this act was passed. Some members of the legislative committees saw that they were afforded the opportunity to become prime sponsors. Those are the only exceptions.

Mr. BENNETT. What do you call them?

Mr. HEWITT. Concentrated employment programs in a few rural areas. Four of them are prime sponsors. Out of 403 prime sponsors there are 4 that are not governmental units; that is, States and units of local governments, or the larger cities and counties.

Mr. BOB WILSON. The shipbuilders council could not become a prime sponsor when they have a specific problem or need?

Mr. HEWITT. No, sir.

Mr. BOB WILSON. At the risk of being provincial, can you tell me who the prime sponsor is in San Diego?

Mr. HEWITT. Yes, sir; the City of San Diego and County of San Diego are both prime sponsors.

Mr. BOB WILSON. They are giving money for training?

Mr. HEWITT. They have an amount of money to train workers for jobs in their jurisdiction.

Mr. BOB WILSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. BENNETT. If my memory is correct, we sent Admiral Kidd's Navy proposal to the Department of Labor in May and asked for a reaction.

I thought you were going to react to that today, but I don't see anything in this reacting to that.

Do you know anything about that?

Mr. HEWITT. No, sir. I don't recall having seen it.

Mr. BENNETT. We expect Secretary Mittendorf to work together with Labor on this at a subsequent time.

Well, frankly, I don't think your testimony is very specific. We have got a very specific problem.

But I don't have the feeling any jobs are going to be matched up with people that need jobs as a result of this testimony.

I don't have any sense of urgency on the part of the Department of Labor to meet a crying need for thousands of jobs for shopworkers. I feel terribly frustrated as a result.

Mr. BOB WILSON. I wonder if we might get a personal opinion from Mr. Hewitt as to whether he thinks this revenue-sharing concept has diluted the authority of the Labor Department to actually implement a program to train people.

Mr. HEWITT. No. I think it has put into place a much-needed reform in the way our programs are run.

The Secretary does not have the same kind of discretionary authority that he had before, unless prime sponsors clearly fall down on the job. When that is the case, he has plenty of authority to move in and straighten them out, or move the program to a different prime sponsor if that should be required.

But, as I have indicated, the program just began on July 1 of this year. These prime sponsors are just getting into the business of being local decisionmakers on the uses of manpower resources. And while I can understand the chairman's sense of frustration that the Department is not putting hands on and making sure that funds go into these things, at this point in time we haven't even completed the review of prime sponsors' plans. Indeed, all prime sponsors have not yet submitted their plans for this fiscal year to our regional offices. We will have to see what is in them.

Mr. BENNETT. You give me good reasons for doing nothing, but, of course, I want to do something.

Mr. Wilson, go ahead.

Mr. BOB WILSON. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman.

What sort of a document is this technical assistance guide of CETA? Is it a big document?

Mr. HEWITT. We have quite a number of technical assistance guides. The one on apprenticeship is not that big a document.

Mr. BOB WILSON. Would it be possible for me to get a copy of that apprenticeship guide?

Mr. HEWITT. Yes.

Mr. BOB WILSON. I would appreciate it.

Mr. BENNETT. What I am going to do, we are going to have other questions, too, but I am going to have Mr. Norris send you the important part of the testimony about these job needs and then I want somebody in the Department of Labor to address this testimony with regard to what they think they can do about it.

If you need legislative changes to give you power to do something about it, recommend those changes.

I don't know that we want to have another hearing. I thought since we told you in May, told the Department of Labor, not you personally, but told the Department of Labor in May, that we wanted to have them respond to this, that they would have done so.

Apparently, they feel that this kind of testimony is adequate.
It is not adequate for me.

I think the Department of Labor ought to respond with a greater sense of urgency and a greater direction; and if they can't do something because something else hasn't been done, I understand that.

I lived all my life in bureaucracy. I was born in a Federal office building. Most of my life has been Federal employment.

I am very familiar with bureaucracy. I know nobody sets out to create it. It just happens, but I think when you have such a concrete proposal of the need, that there ought to be more concreteness in the

response and I think you should respond to tell where the real problems are in meeting this problem.

In other words, I listened carefully to everything you said.

I don't have a feeling that the Department of Labor is doing anything, but making a presentation here that could be a certain portion of this record of this committee.

And I have a feeling that they just want to put something in the record.

They don't really want to respond to the fact that there is a shortage of manpower in shipbuilding. They don't want to make any suggestions about it.

And any time you come close to a suggestion, something like revenue sharing, all the facts aren't in; this, that, the other-lots of excuses for doing nothing. But no feeling of urgency about doing something.

That is what is distressing to me. It is conceivable to me that this is because it might cost more money, and maybe OMB has put its hand on the Department of Labor.

But I think the Department would be allowed to say that it feels it can't do it within its present budget.

Is there that sort of a pressure on you by OMB to say: Don't say anything that will cost us any more money?

Mr. HEWITT. There is no explicit communication right now on this particular situation to that effect, although we are not oblivious to the overall budget situation. The budget is undergoing constant scrutiny to see where it can be cut-in manpower programs as elsewhere.

I am hopeful manpower programs will not be cut. However, I don't anticipate that funds for manpower training will be expanded very rapidly.

Mr. BENNETT. It is not very encouraging for a Member of Congress to vote for funds for a manpower program to hear testimony like this morning.

It is not encouraging; it is very discouraging.

Mr. HEWITT. The whole thrust of the development of this manpower legislation that was just enacted last December was to terminate the system that had preceded it. The former system was one of targeting funds from Washington on specific plants, groups or industries. We are now putting into effect a system that should be coordinated in a labor market area. This will replace the chaotic situation, where there were a half dozen or more different actors in each city working various parts of the manpower problem.

We believe that the new system that is being put into place will be responsive to local needs for trained workers.

Mr. BENNETT. Specifically, you know you have a shortage of people in shipbuilding. You know this to be a problem. It is a problem that is affecting the Navy.

You know this to be so. Now, you say a new system has been established which you think is going to work out real well, meet local problems and all this.

Well, are you telling me now that your Department is just going to supervise the distribution of these funds and you are not going to make any presentation to local people about something that has been brought to their attention, or anything like this?

Are you laying this on my shoulders to do this?

Who are you laying it on? Who will do something about it?

You say just local people will do it.

Is that it?

Mr. HEWITT. The new system is designed so that local people will get from businesses in their community including shipyards where there are shipyards, their requirements for trained workers.

Mr. BENNETT. Don't you think you have some responsibility in the Department of Labor to say that there has been testimony like this to the effect they have a shortage in their area and the Department of Labor wants to know what, if anything they are going to do about it.

You can't even do that?

Mr. HEWITT. We certainly can do that.

Mr. BOB WILSON. What is being done in Newport News?
Mr. BENNETT. Newport News; what are you doing there?

Mr. HEWITT. I am not familiar with the specific plan that the Newport News government has developed or is in the process of developing right now.

Mr. BENNETT. The way you paint the Department of Labor now, in view of the revenue-sharing program, you might as well abolish the Department of Labor.

In other words, if we are going to turn all leadership over to people locally, there isn't any reason to have a Department of Labor up here, except to hold offices and jobs and pay people who are holding the jobs.

You don't give me a functional reason for the Department of Labor. Mr. HEWITT. The manpower program is a big part of the Department of Labor, but not all of it.

I have been trying to indicate, Mr. Chairman, not that we are unsympathetic or unconcerned about the problems of manpower shortages and problems of unemployment side by side, in many places. But for a number of years, we have been trying to work with the Congress to devise legislation that would meet those problems on a local area basis, where they can better be met.

Mr. BENNETT. Don't you have any supervision or any oversight of this?

Mr. HEWITT. Yes, sir.

We have 10 regional offices that are supervising the program.

Mr. BENNETT. You came here this morning to testify to this morning on Seapower, knowing that there was this tremendous need for employees in this area, and you are not prepared to tell me what you have done about it since we said it to you at the Department of Labor, not you personally. We sent the Department of Labor in May this information.

You are here today to make a statement which you could have made last year, or the year before.

In fact, it could have been made 50 years ago.

Mr. HEWITT. Well, I don't think it could Mr. Chairman.

Mr. BENNETT. It is about time you are doing anything.

Mr. HEWITT. We are putting in a whole new manpower system to try to respond to manpower problems including labor shortages.

Mr. BENNETT. But you haven't told me what you have done with. regard to the need for people in the jobs that are available, and in Newport News, for instance; you haven't addressed it at all.

Mr. HEWITT. I have not indicated what this new system is producing for Newport News.

We can get that and submit it to committee for the record, if you would like.

Mr. BENNETT. You say you have indicated.

Mr. HEWITT. I said I have not indicated specifically.

Mr. BENNETT. That is what we hoped you would do.

That is what you were here to do.

In other words, that is what we asked the Department of Labor to come here for, to tell us what they are going to do, what they would suggest be done with regard to meeting this shortage of manpower for shipbuilding.

I don't think you have given us an answer. I don't know what the answer is. I don't know what you are doing, much less what you plan to do or would like to do.

Well, it is not against you personally, but I think it real discouraging. Mr. Daniel do you have any questions?

Mr. ROBERT DANIEL. No, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. BENNETT. Mr. White?

Mr. WHITE. Previously, Mr. Chairman, trying to get the mechanics of the system you have for disseminating information about jobs and how this gets down to the worker himself as I understand the employment service, in local areas, say, State employment agencies, and local communities, would then make a recordation of what jobs are available in each community as well as who is seeking a job.

Mr. HEWITT. The system that is on line at the present time puts all the jobs that come in into the local employment offices in most of the big cities.

Mr. WHITE. Most of them?

Mr. HEWITT. There are over a hundred local job banks located in the larger cities around the country.

Mr. WHITE. What cities?

Mr. HEWITT. Some are area wide and some statewide.

Mr. WHITE. What population break, when you say a large city? Mr. HEWITT. About 125,000 to 150,000.

Mr. WHITE. Then what happens from that point?

Mr. HEWITT. There are a lot of local offices outside of cities of that size, and many of them also have input into what we call a job bank. This is a computerized listing of all the jobs that are on file in local offices in whatever jurisdiction that job bank covers. In 40 States it is statewide. However, we don't have the applicant files computerized. So we are not in a position at this point in time for a computerized matching of jobs and workers with the same skills. But we are working on that. We have several experimental projects to develop the necessary mechanisms.

Mr. WHITE. It goes into the job bank. Then I presume that

Mr. HEWITT. The job bank contains listings for the whole area. There listings are sent to local offices, which can screen it for jobs for workers who are present; are in their files that have the same skills. They would then be referred to the employer that placed a job order. Mr. WHITE. Is there any central point where that information is sent into?

Mr. HEWITT. Central point?

Mr. WHITE. Yes.