I understand that your Department is completing the study, and I look forward to reviewing its findings. Could you tell me when I might expect to? Secretary PIERCE. It should be completed shortly. Let me see if I can get an exact date for you. [Discussion with staff.] It will be done by the beginning of April, sometime in the beginning of April. Mr. WORTLEY. We can rest assured that we will have it in April? Secretary PIERCE. I certainly do. I will squeeze her neck if it is not done by that time. [Indicating a staff member who had given him the information.] [Laughter.] Mr. WORTLEY. Well, you are a tough guy to endure all of the questioning and cross-examination here this morning. I am sure you can get some results to us. I yield back the balance of my time. Yes, Mr. Frank. I see you are up on the upper tier now. Chairman GONZALEZ. Senior member. Mr. FRANK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The first thing I want to say, Mr. Secretary, is that I am glad to hear that we are going to be getting that proposal about better verification of income. I had occasion to discuss that with Assistant Secretary Lindquist last year. It is something I had worked on when I was in the State legislature with regard to public assist ance. I think it is very important for those of us who are supportive of means-tested programs to make sure that they go to the people to whom they are aimed, and I would look forward to working with you. I disagree with some of my friends who think that there is somehow an automatic civil liberties violation if you are efficient, and I think that it can be done. We have done it in Massachusetts in ways that protect the individual privacy of people, and I look forward to working with you on that, and I appreciate that that is coming up. Secretary PIERCE. Thank you. Mr. FRANK. The next question I have has to do with the homeless. Your Department has done some studies of the homeless. What specifically, in what you have sent up to us or in what you are planning, will be aimed at the homeless? The temporary cessation of the Voucher Program means that that potential resource wouldn't be there. I notice the 3,500 vouchers that are available would be for people who are already in some form of housing. It would be to prevent, I guess, that if their public housing was torn down, from producing new homeless, but that is not the major source of homelessness, How does this budget that you have sent us and your various proposals affect the homeless? What is your estimate of what the homeless population will be a year from now if we adopt this budget? Secretary PIERCE. Well, let me ask my people from PD&R. I think it is somewhere between 350,0000 to 500,000, but just let me check that figure. Mr. FRANK. Well, I mean, what is the impact of it? [Pause.] Don't squeeze her neck, Mr. Secretary, if she doesn't have it right away. [Laughter.] Secretary PIERCE. They haven't done a recent study. The last figure they had was 350,000 on a given night, and they think that at the present time there may be about a 10-percent increase above that amount. That is just thought. That is not—— Mr. FRANK. We assume there has been an increase. I am trying to say, I assume that concern for the homeless is one of the things that was motivating you when you were doing this budget. What is in this budget to deal with the problem of the homeless, and what would your estimate be of the result of adopting your budget as submitted? What would that do with regard to homelessness? Secretary PIERCE. Well, let me talk a little bit about the homeless. There are some things that can be done directly by HUD or by communities that get money from HUD, such as CDBG grants. We urge communities to use some of that money for the homeless. We lease single-family homes to- Mr. FRANK. What Secretary PIERCE. Let me can I just finish? Mr. FRANK. Well, I would like to do it one piece at a time. I do like to get specific. With regard to CDBG, your proposal is to do what with CDBG in this budget? Secretary PIERCE. Well, it is going to be cut. Mr. FRANK. To be cut for how much? Secretary PIERCE. It is going to be cut by 10 percent. Mr. FRANK. All right. So to the extent that that is one of the resources for the homeless, we will be doing less for the homeless presumably than we did in the current fiscal year? Secretary PIERCE. Well, it depends on how a city uses its money. Mr. FRANK. Well, that is right. If they did nothing at all, but—— Secretary PIERCE. And if they keep it up- Mr. FRANK. I understand that, but- Secretary PIERCE [continuing]. They get money from their own sources, they could Mr. FRANK. I have asked what is in your budget to deal with the homeless. CDBG is one resource. That is being cut 10 percent. What are the other resources here? Secretary PIERCE. Leasing single-family homes. Mr. FRANK. Through what program? Secretary PIERCE. We get single-family homes back through FHA. Mr. FRANK. Right. Who would pay for that? Secretary PIERCE. And then we lease them to cities or to private institutions that will take care of the homeless with them. Mr. FRANK. Oh, but that is their money? You are the landlord? Are you giving them away for free or what? Secretary PIERCE. No. No, we give them the homes free. Mr. FRANK. All right, how many do you expect in this current year of those homes would be―― 48-671 0-85-8 Secretary PIERCE. I really don't know. I can't tell you. You asked me what we use, what the tools. Mr. FRANK. No, I am not just asking for a general discussion here. We are talking about a budget here. Secretary PIERCE. I don't know how many of these houses are used for the homeless. Mr. FRANK. All right. Secretary PIERCE. A lot depends on how many we get back through FÍA. I don't know exactly what that number is. Mr. FRANK. All right, but what I was hoping for▬▬ Mr. FRANK. No, Mr. Secretary, please. I don't think these are unfair questions. The homeless is not some obscure subject. I am not asking you to— Secretary PIERCE. Well, I am trying to give you what tools we use. Mr. FRANK. No, I don't want to know just what tools you use. My question was: How will this budget affect the availability of those tools? Will we have more or less homeless? Secretary PIERCE. Well, the budget will not affect the leasing of the housing. The budget will not affect it. Mr. FRANK. There is no Secretary PIERCE. It depends on how many FHA houses we get back. Mr. FRANK. Is there any proposal in the budget or any effort to increase that? Secretary PIERCE. No. Mr. FRANK. How many units are currently leased for the housing, approximately? Do we know? Secretary PIERCE. I don't know offhand. Mr. FRANK. Well, I would appreciate knowing that. Secretary PIERCE. I will get the answer and put it in the record for you. Mr. FRANK. All right. [At the request of Congressman Frank, the following additional information was submitted for inclusion in the record by Secretary Pierce:] RESPONSE RECEIVED FROM SECRETARY PIERCE As of January of this year, 20 single-family properties in four regions were leased to organizations or units of local government to provide housing for homeless persons. This includes, in Region IV, two houses in Birmingham, Alabama and 10 in Memphis, Tennessee; one house in Pontiac, Michigan, in Region V; three houses in Caspar, Wyoming, and one property in Fargo, North Dakota, in Region VIII; and three properties in Phoenix, Arizona, in region IX. Leases are for one year, renewable at the option of the organization or locality, at a nominal rent payment of $1 per year. Mr. FRANK. What else have we got besides the leasing? Secretary PIERCE. We urge the PHA's that have sustained vacancies as resources to house the homeless, and we also use a certain number of section 8 certificates as a set-aside to shelter homeless. Mr. FRANK. Well, let me ask, if I can, about the PHA's now. That is presumably for no rent? They would be allowed to rent those for free to the homeless? Secretary PIERCE. Basically for no rent, or they may make a deal with a charitable organization. Mr. FRANK. All right. Secretary PIERCE. But we try to get a lot of those without rent and sometimes combine it with section 8 existing certificates. Mr. FRANK. All right. Now, the question I have is this, though. We are talking about the PHA's turning over their vacancies. Secretary PIERCE. Yes. Mr. FRANK. Again, am I correct that this budget would reduce, in general, the funds available to PHA's? See, what I am worried about is that you have counted the homeless, you tell me you think they are increasing. Secretary PIERCE. Well, right now- Mr. FRANK. Please, Mr. Secretary. Secretary PIERCE. Right now they get paid for the vacancies. Mr. FRANK. Yes. Are they going to be getting paid more or less, or how does your budget affect that? Secretary PIERCE. We hope that they will get paid less. We hope that eventually we will reduce it down to a 3-percent vacancy rate for which they get paid. Mr. FRANK. Well, that figures. So that would mean then that if you are Secretary PIERCE. But right at this moment they get paid. Mr. FRANK. But if your budget is successful, then, this would be a trend away from the homeless. Again, I am trying to find out how this will be affecting the homeless. You said Secretary PIERCE. Well, not- Mr. FRANK. No, Mr. Secretary, please listen. I know this is not your favorite thing to do. You know, there are a lot-at least parts of the job you must enjoy. I wouldn't guess what they were. Secretary PIERCE. No, I would just like to give you the facts. [Laughter.] Mr. FRANK. Well, I guess what I am looking for- Secretary PIERCE. You just want to put on the record what you want to say. Mr. FRANK. Oh, no, Mr. Secretary. Secretary PIERCE. Well, then let me talk. Mr. FRANK. No, I will let you answer questions that I ask. I will be glad to answer questions that you want to ask me at some point. Secretary PIERCE. I don't want to ask you questions. Mr. FRANK. I want specifics. Secretary PIERCE. I just want to answer the ones you are asking. Mr. FRANK. Well, I want specifics, see. You have told me your estimate of the homeless, you think it is increasing. I have asked what seemed to be a reasonable question, which is how your budget will affect our ability to help the homeless. Now, you say one thing is that the PHA's can rent them their vacant units, but my sense now, you are telling me is you are hoping that the PHA's will have fewer vacancies. That would mean fewer units for the homeless. So is there anything in your budget that would increase the resources that your Department is making available to provide housing for the homeless, whom you tell us you think are increasing? Secretary PIERCE. Well, it would only be if we got more section 8 existing certificates or more vouchers Mr. FRANK. Are you asking for those? Mr. FRANK. So in the budget as requested, it sounds to me like those resources you have enumerated as being available for the homeless, they are either staying the same or going down, and that sounds to me like we are going to have more homeless. Secretary PIERCE. Well, not- Mr. FRANK. CDBG is going down, you are trying to reduce the vacancy rate. Secretary PIERCE. Well, first of all, you have got to take the overall number of the homeless. The overall number of the homeless we think is about 350,000. Mr. FRANK. To 500,000, you said. Secretary PIERCE. To 500,000. And there is a good chance it is going to be less. If our economy continues to improve, it will probably be less because an improved economy will reduce a certain number of them. Mr. FRANK. Except Secretary PIERCE. What we have got is a relatively small number of homeless spread nationwide; and as there are substantial resources available, to assist these people, they should receive a considerable amount of help. Mr. FRANK. Well, how do you— Secretary PIERCE. Now, let me go further. Let me go further. Mr. FRANK. No, I want to stop you on these specifics. I want to talk facts with you. You say that it is going to decrease. I wish I could believe that. Unfortunately, there is reason to believe that the general prosperity doesn't necessarily do that because, you have said yourself, we had 350,000 when you did your survey, you said you think there has been maybe a 10-percent increase, but that has been during a time of prosperity. Your own facts, of which you are very fond, unfortunately, dispute the notion that the prosperity is reducing those. Secretary PIERCE. No, those are not my facts. That is what the PD&R people tell me maybe, they think, they don't know. They haven't done a new study. Mr. FRANK. Oh, that is not a fact. That is a maybe, "they think, they don't know"? [Laughter.] Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't want any more- Secretary PIERCE. So what we know is Mr. FRANK. Mr. Chairman, I don't want any more "maybe," "I think," "I don't know's." Secretary PIERCE. What we know is 350,000. Mr. FRANK. Well, you know, Mr. Secretary, when it was not tactically unwise, you said there was a 10-percent increase. We suddenly solved the 10-percent increase in the last 5 minutes of questions. Secretary PIERCE. No, I didn't. No, no. |