widens investigations of prisons outside Iraq and Afghanistan. National security advisor Condoleezza Rice tells the Arab world that the abuses will be investigated and the perpetrators punished. Army officials give Senate committee a private briefing. * May 5: President Bush appears on two Arab television channels, saying those responsible for the abuses will be brought to justice. Rumsfeld agrees to testify before the Senate committee in open session Friday. Sources: Associated Press, Department of Defense, Agence France-Presse GRAPHIC: PHOTO: FUTURE IN DOUBT? Resignation rumors swirl around Donald H. Rumsfeld. LOAD-DATE: May 6, 2004 Senator BYRD. My question is, is a presidential apology to the King of Jordan sufficient? Secretary RUMSFELD. Senator, I guess that's for the President and Congress and others to decide. There have been many apologies. There have been apologies by every person at this table today. Any suggestion that there is not a full, deep awareness of what has happened and the damage it has done, I think, would be a misunderstanding. The report that we're talking about is sitting right there on the floor. It is I don't know-what, 2-feet high? Senator BYRD. Did you read it? Secretary RUMSFELD. I read the executive summary, which is 50 to 75 pages, and I looked at some of the annexes and appendices and references. I have been briefed on it in full, as have the people at this table, and you can be certain of that. Senator BYRD. The ICRC claims that it made reports of prisoner abuse in Iraq throughout 2003. I understand that those reports are confidential, by mutual agreement. Secretary Rumsfeld, how do we know that there isn't a broader problem here? We have heard reports of prisoner abuse from more than just the Abu Ghraib prison. Will you ask the ICRC to waive its confidentiality agreement on those reports, and make public all pertinent reports on U.S. military-run prison facilities, including those in Iraq, Afghanistan, Guantanamo, and elsewhere? Secretary RUMSFELD. We will certainly be happy to provide the committee with all the reports that we have. I think the issue of the ICRC allowing one of their reports to be made public is an issue for them, because they worry that they will not be told the truth when they go into countries where there are dictatorships and where people are systematically punished and tortured, and people do not want to talk to them if the ICRC gets a reputation for making their report public. So we will be happy to give you our reports, on a confidential basis that is respectful of the ICRC's stipulations. Chairman WARNER. Thank you very much, Senator. Senator BYRD. With all due respect to you, the matter is far deeper than that. The American people need to know what's in those reports. When the ICRC supplies the DOD with those re Secretary RUMSFELD. We'd be happy to give it to you. Chairman WARNER. Thank you. Senator Allard. Senator ALLARD. Mr. Chairman, first of all I want to thank you for holding this committee hearing. I know there was some discussion about the format and everything, but I think it's the right thing to do to have this as an open hearing. I want to also thank the panel for agreeing to come here and testify before us in an open hearing. That's the strength of America, that we're willing to come out in a public manner and talk about our strengths and weaknesses, and lay out how we're going to deal with those. As somebody who has participated in this, I think that we are sending a good message to the world that we are open; that we are not a perfect people, but we do our best. I just wanted to make that statement before I asked any questions. The thing that I heard in your testimony, Mr. Secretary-and I think it needs to be elaborated on-is this issue of command influence. I know that as the facts become evident, that prosecutors of misconduct in the military have a real concern about command influence. I would like you to elaborate more on that, or maybe some other panel members might elaborate on that, and how that might affect a case for prosecution. You mentioned you had six courtsmartial, I believe, and I wondered if you would share that with the committee. Secretary RUMSFELD. We are continuously advised by lawyers, counsels, that there are two issues that create a tension. One is the importance of having integrity in the criminal prosecution process, and that people in the chain of command that conceivably, over time, would be called upon to make a judgment about the decisions at the lower levels do not inject themselves into that process early or in a way that would lead people to believe that their comments were influencing the outcome of some of those criminal decisions or other decisions. Therefore, people in the chain are in a difficult position. To the extent we have a discussion like this about what's taken place, we can be certain that the defense counsels for these people who are being accused, and are going to be criminally prosecuted, will say that these hearings and this discussion had an influence on the case. We don't want to have that be the case, and that's why we're being careful in what we say. The other side of the coin is, we don't want someone's rights to be infringed upon, someone who is a defendant and may be innocent. A process could lead to a situation where their rights would not be fully protected. So we do have to be careful. Senator ALLARD. If there are six courts-martial now, do you anticipate there will be more courts-martial? Have any of those in command been indicted? Secretary RUMSFELD. I checked, and last year we had something like 18,000 criminal investigations opened, and we ended up with 3,000 courts-martial. So, at any given time, with a large organization like the DOD, there is always something happening. There is no way in the world I could anticipate. But the investigations are open, the investigators are determined, and, to the extent they find information that leads them to believe that a court martial is indicated, or non-judicial punishment of other types, they certainly will do so. They understand the gravity of this. Senator ALLARD. I want to follow up on the ICRC report. Were they given full access? What main issues did that report raise? Secretary RUMSFELD. I have the report somewhere here, and I'd be happy to let you see it. I'm reluctant to start discussing it, but I can say what I already said, that they found a number of things that they were concerned about, as they always do. It's helpful, I must say. The people then began to read it, agree or disagree, and make the changes. When General Taguba came in and made his report, he indicated that a number of the issues that had been raised last year by the ICRC had, in fact, been corrected by the command structure between the time that they were observed by the ICRC and the time that General Taguba's team arrived on the scene. Senator ALLARD. Mr. Chairman, my time is expired. I do have a written statement for the record. [The prepared statement of Senator Allard follows:] PREPARED STATEMENT BY SENATOR WAYNE ALLARD Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me first join you in welcoming our witnesses this morning to discuss the troubling issue of prisoner abuse involving our Armed Forces. I am deeply saddened and distressed over these allegations. When we commit our military to fight our country's wars, we fully expect each and every American soldier to serve as the model soldier-statesman, a standard bearer for people everywhere. Our American forces are to be feared for their unmatched effectiveness and valor in combat. More importantly, they are to be respected and valued for their humanitarian and compassionate conduct when carrying out their duties. We are at a delicate phase now, introducing to the Afghanis and Iraqis the promises of a democracy and the better times ahead. A major part of our difficulty is the fact that these people simply do not yet know what democracy holds for themthey have yet to experience the freedoms and justice that Americans take for granted. Today, we rely on our Armed Forces to set this stage, to help these emerging democracies take root. What is so disturbing is that these allegations erode, to the core, the basic principles of liberty we so desperately need to instill and uphold across this region. Based on my preliminary readings, Mr. Chairman, I don't believe we will uncover systemic problems in our military of wanton disregard for either the rule of law or general human rights. Rather, I believe the committee will see, in painful detail, a case study of the extraordinary damage that can occur when we experience such a disastrous breakdown in military leadership and discipline. It is of small consolation that there were many solid, upstanding soldiers in the middle of this leadership void that maintained their military bearing, sought command attention for these violations, and carried-on in accordance with the high professional standards we all expect. I find it extremely unfortunate that the activities of so few are now overshadowing the extraordinary accomplishments of so many. I visited both Afghanistan and Iraq earlier this year, and got to see firsthand many of our 130,000 uniformed service men and women undertaking heroic public works projects. General Smith's Central Command is engaged in building mosques, schools, hospitals, roadways, water, and sewage facilities, and other critical infrastructure desperately needed across the region. Now, however, we have a small minority of apparently misled, misfit commanders and soldiers casting a negative light over what should be, and what I hope will ultimately be, a proud accomplishment for our forces. Mr. Secretary and Chairman Myers, I understand the scope of your job and responsibilities are enormous. I believe that comprehensive remedies to this situation need to be among your top priorities. Let's get out in the open the relevant information and answers we need to close this issue soonest. Let's get the solutions and preventive measures identified and in place soonest. Let's get the few soldiers and commanders-those that let us all down-before the appropriate judicial process Chairman WARNER. Thank you very much. Senator Lieberman. Senator LIEBERMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Secretary, the behavior by Americans at the prison in Iraq is, as we all acknowledge, immoral, intolerable, and un-American. It deserves the apology that you have given today, as well as the apologies that have been given by others in high positions in our Government and our military. I cannot help but say, however, that those who were responsible for killing 3,000 Americans on September 11, 2001, never apologized. Those who have killed hundreds of Americans in uniform in Iraq, working to liberate Iraq and protect our security, have never apologized. Those who murdered and burned and humiliated four Americans in Fallujah a while ago never gave an apology to anybody. Wrongs occurred here by the people in those pictures and perhaps by people up the chain of command. But Americans are different. That's why we're outraged by this. That's why the apologies were due. That's why I hope, as we go about this investigation, we do it in a way that does not dishonor the hundreds of thousands of Americans in uniform who are a lot more like Pat Tillman and Americans that are not known, like Army National Guard Sergeant Felix del Greco, of Simsbury, Connecticut, who was killed in action a few weeks ago. We shall not dishonor their service or discredit the cause that brought us to send them to Iraq, because it remains one that is just and nec essary. We have to get to the whole truth here, and nothing but the truth. We can't be defensive. We have to be aggressive about it. As Senator McCain said, we have to do it quickly so that we and you and, most of all, our soldiers can get back to fighting and winning the war on terrorism with determination. As far as I'm concerned, we do have to know how this happened, and we have to know it so we can stop it from happening ever again. You've said that the behavior of those soldiers was fundamentally un-American. I agree with you. This goes way back to the first American declaration, the Declaration of Independence, where we said that every human being has those rights as an endowment of our Creator. That even goes to human beings who have been apprehended by our military, as they have been in Iraq, because they are suspected of being part of the terrorists, of the jihadists, of the foreign fighters, of the Saddam loyalists, who are killing Americans and Iraqis every day. We know that people are flawed, and that's why we believe in the rule of law, to try to make us better and punish those who fall below appropriate humane standards. In that regard, it seems to me when it comes to the treatment of prisoners and detainees in conditions of combat, the Geneva Conventions, adopted by the United States as the law of the landand that have been implemented by U.S. Army Regulation 190-8. You made some controversial statements early on, after Afghanistan, that said the Geneva Conventions were "not relevant here," that, "by and large”—and I'm quoting generally-“American military interrogators or prison guards would try to carry out the rights of prisoners and detainees according to the Geneva Conven tions." But I want to ask you today, as you look back to that, do you think you were right? Did anything replace the rules of the Geneva Conventions in Army Regulation 190-8? If not, why not? Secretary RUMSFELD. Senator, the President of the United States made a determination in early 2002 that the Geneva Conventions' provisions did not apply to our conflict with al Qaeda, although he concluded that Geneva Conventions did apply to the conflict with the Taliban. That was a decision by the President. He determined that Taliban detainees did not qualify as POWs under the third Geneva Convention criteria for POWs. He also made clear that it was, and will continue to be, America's policy to treat detainees humanely and in a manner that was consistent with the Geneva Conventions. So the people were treated consistent to the Geneva Conventions, but he made a distinction with respect to al Qaeda. Senator LIEBERMAN. Are these detainees, do you assume, members of al Qaeda? That is, the thousands that have been held in Iraq? Or are they in another status? Secretary RUMSFELD. Oh, no, the President announced from the outset that everyone in Iraq who was a military person and was detained is a POW, and, therefore, the Geneva Conventions apply. Second, the decision was made that the civilians or criminal elements that are detainees are also treated subject to the Geneva Conventions, although it's a different element of it. I think it's the fourth instead of the third. Senator LIEBERMAN. I appreciate that clarification, because I was not aware of that. Then you would say that all those held in prison, including those who were abused here, had the rights of POWS under the Geneva Conventions. General MYERS. Absolutely. [Clarifying information from the DOD follows:] All detainees held in Iraq are protected under the Geneva Conventions. Enemy POWs are covered under Geneva Convention III. Civilians are protected under Geneva Convention IV. Those pictured in the photographs from Abu Ghraib are believed to be civilians. Senator LIEBERMAN. Therefore, the fault clearly was that those we've seen, and hopefully not others, were either not properly trained, properly disciplined, or, in any case, not observing the law of the United States of America with regard to the rights of POWs. General MYERS. If I may, I think that's exactly right. It's aberrant behavior. The Taguba Report, if you recall, looked at four installations where the 800th MP Brigade had operations. They found abuse in only one, and that's Abu Ghraib. They found abuse in one. Senator LIEBERMAN. My time's up. Thank you. Chairman WARNER. Thank you very much. Senator Sessions. Senator SESSIONS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. These are, indeed, actions that go against the very core values of America. I want to say, however, that I believe the military responded properly immediately. I want to join with Senator Lieberman's courageous and strong comments about how we do not need to dishonor the soldiers out there this very day, at risk of their lives, withholding firing weapons, being in hostile situations, |