Mr. LIEVER. No, I can't, because, remember, I asked you what to take along and I took that stuff along.

Mr. DERRICKSON. You don't recall whether there was any life insurance involved in that case, or not?

Mr. LIEVER. I forget, it has been a long time. If the record shows there was life insurance, I assume there was some.

Mr. DERRICKSON. I don't want to ask you about it unless you can recall the case.

Now, you say you can recall one part of it, one segment?

Mr. LIEVER. I thought that Pottsville had life insurance.

Mr. DERRICKSON. What was your commission, do you recall that? Mr. LIEVER. I think it was 1712 percent.

Mr. DERRICKSON. Did you have the same kind of agreement with respect to experience, that is, a retrospective commission agreement involving the splitting of savings?

Mr. LIEVER. I believe I did.

Mr. DERRICKSON. You believe you did?

Mr. LIEVER. I believe I did.

Mr. DERRICKSON. Maybe this letter will recall to your mind whether or not you did. I have a photostatic copy of a letter from the Minnesota Mutual Life Insurance Co., addressed to Mr. Earl Liever, 519 California Street, San Francisco, Calif., in re National Brotherhood of Teamsters, Chauffeurs, Warehousemen, and Helpers of America, Local 429, AFL.

DEAR MR. LIEVER: We are pleased to enclose our check for $281.61 representing the dividend under the above group during the past year. Please see that this check is delivered to policyholders.

Yours very truly,

GORDON F. MEEKER, Supervisor, Group Accounting Section.

Mr. LIEVER. I think the life portion must have been put on toward the end of the case. That is the reason I just don't recall offhand; but I did deliver it.

Mr. DERRICKSON. You did deliver it?

Mr. LIEVER. Yes; I did.

Mr. DERRICKSON. That would mean that you did not have the retrospective commission agreement?

Mr. LIEVER. I am talking about the American Casualty Co.

Mr. DERRICKSON. I asked you about the life part of it.

Mr. LIEVER. No; I had nothing with the life insurance.

Mr. DERRICKSON. You didn't have that kind of an agreement?
Mr. LIEVER. No, sir.

Mr. DERRICKSON. Mr. Liever, are there any of these funds in which you are the broker that involves the administration of the fund, any case where you are the administrator, that is, where you collect fees for administering the case?

Mr. LIEVER. One case, San Bernardino.

Mr. DERRICKSON. San Bernardino Hotel and Restaurant Workers? Mr. LIEVER. Yes.

Mr. DERRICKSON. In that particular case, what was your commission from the insurance company?

Mr. LIEVER. Five percent.

Mr. DERRICKSON. Five percent?

Mr. LIEVER. Five percent.

Mr. DERRICKSON. That is the commission, 5 percent of all premiums paid?

Mr. LIEVER. At the present time; 5 percent.

Mr. DERRICKSON. How much do you get for administering that fund?

Mr. LIEVER. I am not so sure if it is 4 or 6 percent. I am not so sure of that.

Mr. DERRICKSON. If I told you it was 4 percent, would that recall it to your mind?

Mr. LIEVER. You saw the records. If it is 4 percent it could be 4 percent.

Mr. WIER. I wish you would talk a little louder. This is a whispering conversation going on here.

Mr. DERRICKSON. With respect to that fund I would like you to explain just how it operates. Is it not true that there is an administration office in San Bernardino?

Mr. LIEVER. Yes, sir; there is an administration office in San Bernardino where the claims are presented for payment of the claims, together with all of the bills connected with each claimant and then they are sent on to my office where we figure out what is the amount due in accordance with the contract of insurance and then we issue a draft, with a transmittal letter itemizing how we arrived at the payment of the claims to the claimant, to the administrator, I think Elizabeth Marshall.

Mr. DERRICKSON. Elizabeth Marshall is the administrator of the office in San Bernardino?

Mr. LIEVER. Yes; she does handle the drafts.

Mr. DERRICKSON. What she does is maintain an office where the claims are paid, where the information is taken as to the time lost, the type of illness, all the information with respect to the claim, the doctor's bills, hospital bills, or whatever else are involved, and which are there put on forms and then sent to your office?

Mr. LIEVER. Yes; her function is also to collect and bill premiums to the various respective contributors.

Mr. DERRICKSON. Now, as to that administration and the expenses in that office, that is paid by the trustees of the fund, is it not? Mr. LIEVER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DERRICKSON. Now, after that information is gathered, placed on forms and sent to your office, you get an additional 4 percent from the trustees, too, don't you?

Mr. LIEVER. That is right.

Mr. DERRICKSON. For administration?

Mr. LIEVER. For processing the claims and issuing the draft and seeing that the proper claims are paid to the respective claimants. Mr. DERRICKSON. I was going to ask you to explain what your office does when they get that information.

Mr. LIEVER. When we get the information, say, for example, that a claimant has a surgical claim and, say, according to the schedule, say it is an appendectomy, say the schedule for $100 payment and we check up to see whether or not the claimant is eligible for it and issue a draft.

Mr. DERRICKSON. Isn't the eligibility determined in the office at San Bernardino? That is where they keep the eligibility cards for the employees?

Mr. LIEVER. I mean based on the eligibility for claim, whether or not

Mr. DERRICKSON. You determine the amount paid as a result of the information supplied by this office?

Mr. LIEVER. That is correct.

Mr. DERRICKSON. For instance, under the policy you begin paying for doctor's calls after the third call, and when the information comes in that there were 5 calls on a case, then you in your office decide that you would pay for 2, compute the amount and write the check? Mr. LIEVER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. DERRICKSON. How much work is involved in determining that amount and writing the check to be sent back to Mrs. Marshall to be paid to the claimant?

Mr. LIEVER. I think the young lady in the office whom you met, sir, Virigina Bailey, I think she spends at least-they have been coming in heavily lately-I would say at least from 3 to 312 days of each week. Mr. DERRICKSON. Does she handle all of this herself?

Mr. LIEVER. I come in the picture, too, because there are a lot of borderline cases that I have to interpret according to the contract and then I help her out. She does the clerical work.

Mr. DERRICKSON. Have you recently discussed with her how much of her time is involved in this work?

Mr. LIEVER. I wouldn't say that I specifically discussed it. I mean casually I would say 3 and 4 days a weeks to do a good job.

Mr. DERRICKSON. How do you explain the fact that Mrs. Bailey told me on November 11 that she handles all of this herself; that the maximum amount of time involved in doing it is 10 hours a week?

She uses approximately 32 days a week, 3 mornings, from 9 to 12, during which time she answers the phone, opens correspondence, and does other duties, and her estimate is no more than 10 hours per week.

Mr. LIEVER. She never told me that information. I can only tell what I discussed with her. I am sure she is wrong. It takes more time than that.

Mr. DERRICKSON. Then you don't think that she told me the truth? Mr. LIEVER. I wouldn't say that, sir. That is her opinion. You are asking for my opinion.

Mr. DERRICKSON. I am asking you for your opinion. I am telling what she told me.

Mr. LIEVER. Yes.

Mr. DERRICKSON. She also knew, when she was telling me that, that you knew it and you didn't discuss with her

Mr. LIEVER. That is the first time I heard about her telling you the actual time. I thought you were just asking the process of how she does it. I never knew you asked her anything pertaining to the hours.

Mr. DERRICKSON. That is her estimate and I thought perhaps you knew it.

Mr. LIEVER. No, I didn't, sir.

Mr. DERRICKSON. So much for that.

Mr. Liever, I want to read a letter to you addressed to Mr. Fred Boyer-first, let me ask you who Mr. Fred Boyer is? Was he at one time one of your employees?

Mr. LIEVER. Yes.

Mr. DERRICKSON. On July 10, 1953, he was apparently an employee of yours at that time?

Mr. LIEVER. That is right.

Mr. DERRICKSON. Which would account for the letter being addressed to him. This letter is a letter written on the stationery of the Hotel and Restaurant Insurance Trust Fund, San Bernardino, Calif., addressed to Mr. Fred Boyer, Earl Liever, Inc., 529 California Street, San Francisco:

DEAR MR. BOYER: This letter is not only private, confidential, and top secret, but I do not want your answers on any of the correspondence I keep in my files. For some time I have been a little doubtful of certain conditions out in Needles. However, that is some distance away and I have been keeping my fingers crossed. Now something has come to light that will take a little thinking. About 10 days ago I received a claim from a waitress in Needles. As the house at which she is employed has never paid into the plan, I wrote her that at this time her claim could not be considered, et cetera.

Incidentally, it is the house we are suing. I explained the situation. She would not take my word, I guess, and she wrote Mr. Reece. Yesterday one of my agents gave me a letter addressed to Mr. Reece. Apparently she had seen Mr. “R” and he has told her to give $2.40 a month to some employer and I will never know the difference and she can then collect on her insurance.

I do

The only catch was that she can't find an employer who is willing to cooperate. I cannot say anything to Mr. Reece or he will know I have seen the letter. know, however, that he has suggested that procedure to others on thedesert, I guess

on the desert.

This photostatic copy is a little blurred.

I have always been reasonably certain that claimants were really working in the house as far as San Bernardino and Riverside were concerned, also Victorville. But when you get away in Needles, I have no contact there to keep me informed. To my way of thinking that is not the most ethical way of doing things and I was quite upset over the whole thing. I had sincerely tried to keep this plan on the up and up, but it is a case of constant vigilance. I know Mr. Liever wishes I would move out and have a separate office, but it is for reasons such as this that I have felt that only by being right here in the midst of things can I keep up with what goes on and you may take my word for it, plenty goes on. If I didn't watch every move the union would have bled the plan to an agonizing death long ago. I do not intend to say anything about this to anyone at present, but I do wonder how many of our "splendid union members" are using that method to establish eligibility. We could never have Mr. Myers investigate for us; he is in with Mr. Reece tooth and nail and has entered into many deals that were likely irregular. That is why I do not have him do a thing with the claims. He caused me too many headaches.

That is about all I have to offer this bright sunny day. I did feel, however, that you should know and if you feel this is a common procedure and not worth worrying about, I know I can find plenty of other problems to worry about.

I do want that place to operate smoothly and legally. Rules are rules and while I sometimes feel some of them are a little stupid, I know they were made for a good reason and must be observed.

However, I know the union does not see eye to eye with me and if they can push a claim by me, they will. I have caught more than one, but have never said anything about them. The embarrassment of the supposed claimants has been sufficient punishment.

Very truly yours,

HOTEL AND RESTAURANT INSURANCE FUND,
ELIZABETH MARSHALL.

P. S. This letter will never receive any prize for typing, but at least you can read it.

That, I take it, is a report from Mrs. Marshall to Mr. Boyer, about a situation in Needles in connection with the administration of the fund. Did that letter ever come to your attention?

Mr. LIEVER. I will be frank with you; no.

Mr. DERRICKSON. Did Mr. Boyer or you ever do anything about it? Mr. LIEVER, No. The first time I saw this is when you came here to photostat the letters. Mr. Boyer was the one in the office who helped along with the administration in the payment of draft, and after Mr. Boyer was no longer with me I would get that kind of letter addressed to me, if it comes to Elizabeth Marshall and me.

I really don't know what she really meant. I think generally speaking she has done a wonderful job. To my observation some of the people don't like her and I have really kept her on because I think she has done a terrific job.

If the chairman will recall, she is the young lady who testified at San Bernardino. She loves to sit down and write letters. She is a wonderful girl.

I thought by having an office away from the union she could not have the pressure put on her. There were certain cases where she took a lot of abuse from claimants. Then she called me on the phone. I came down to the monthly meetings of the trustees and I backed her up to the limit in each case.

As a matter of actual fact, they had some kind of fight when she moved out. She is no longer in the office.

My original recommendation that she should be away from the office next to the union has been carried out without me knowing anything about it. She is a wonderful gal. I can appreciate her problems. I have backed her up to the limit.

Mr. DERRICKSON. Did you ever give her any good advice on how to handle a case like that?

Mr. LIEVER. I don't remember coming across a case like that. I said, "Any problems you have, if you think it is right, you pass opinion on it. Then if you want to hold it for the trustees to discuss and me when I go down to the monthly meetings, I will be glad."

I always came a day before and I discussed it with her and we went to the trustees and I backed her up.

Mr. DERRICKSON. Here is a long letter telling you about one of her problems. Did you ever discuss it with her?

Mr. LIEVER. This particular incident here?

Mr. DERRICKSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEVER. I don't recall offhand.

Mr. DERRICKSON. This is one you didn't discuss with her ?

Mr. LIEVER. I can't speak for Mr. Boyer, but once in a while she would get so discouraged that I would sit down and write her a letter not to get in fights with anybody; just do her job because her job is administration. She should not be interested in any labor problems or anything, just attend to the business.

Mr. DERRICKSON. Do you believe that this letter indicated a concern about a situation that was not her business as an administrator? Mr. LIEVER. I don't know what is in the letter.

Mr. DERRICKSON. The letter I just read.

Mr. LIEVER. I think it is definitely.

Mr. DERRICKSON. You think that it was her business?

Mr. LIEVER. I think it was.

Mr. DERRICKSon. Do you think it was?