That is to say, I think that the schedules on Saturdays could be very much reduced in the mailing division. In the financial sections of the post office certainly there will be no cost, because in all the great financial centers and the postal centers the business houses and the banks and the financial institutions close at 12 o'clock, and there is really nothing to do for those clerks. They might just as well go home.

I believe also, that in the mailing division much of the schedules could be reduced on a Saturday so that there would not be this excessive cost.

In the judgment of this association the cost of operation of this law in practice in first and second class post offices would be not more than 50 per cent of the estimate of the department.

I will submit a brief, Mr. Chairman, and with your kind permission I will conclude, and I wish to thank this honorable committee for the courtesy accorded me.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.

The brief referred to is as follows:

BRIEF IN SUPPORT OF H. R. 167, H. R. 2898, H. R. 6603; PROPOSALS TO GRANT A SHORTER WORKDAY ON SATURDAY TO POSTAL WORKERS

(Submitted by C. P. Franciscus, president United National Association of Post Office Clerks)

Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, the association which I have the honor to represent, namely, the United National Association of Post Office Clerks, was originally organized in 1885, was reorganized in 1892, and again reorganized under its present title in 1899. At the time the association was first formed the working conditions of post-office clerks and most other postal workers was most deplorable. This was particularly true of post-office clerks in first and second class post offices, of whom it has been said by more than one Postmaster General that they represent the backbone of our great postal system. This association is represented by members in more than 75 per cent of all the first and second class post offices in the United States, Alaska, Hawaii, and Porto Rico. There are some 44,000 post-office clerks who maintain membership in this association, and their individual and collective contributions to the development of efficiency of the service have been equal to, and probably greater than, those of any other group.

The association, believing always in the sanctity and inviolability of the oath of office to which those who enter the public service must subscribe, has consistently followed the practice of respectfully petitioning the Congress of the United States and endeavoring at all times to advocate only such measures of relief that were based on fundamental principles of justice and equity, and I am happy to record that past Congresses have recognized this fact and have been persuaded in many instances to correct many of the grievances, injustices, and hardships under which post-office clerks had to work.

In the old days the troubles of a post-office clerk were so many and Fis privileges so few that he had little time to think of such legislation as your honorable committee has now under consideration.

Our association meets in annual convent on, and at such conventions we have representatives from almost every State 'n the Union who bring to us their thoughts and ideas, and from their deliberations and collective thought we evolve a legislative program that if enacted into law would not only better the cond tion of postal workers but would by the very nature of things better the Postal Service, and that is the supreme thought in the m nds of every postal employee.

Some years ago, at one of our annual conventions, the question of a shorter workday on Saturday was much discussed. The post-office clerks recognized that the Postal Service is in fact a 24-hour service. It is not possible to close the post office completely at a certain hour on Saturday or on any other day.

Mails must be dispatched and mails must be received. Railroad schedules, steamship schedules, and now airplane schedules must be maintained on Saturday the same as any other working day, and again on Sunday schedules must be maintained, although reduced. Mindful of these conditions the association conceived the plan of accomplishing the shorter workday on Saturday for post-office clerks by providing that for any service required of them on Saturday in excess of four hours that they would be allowed compensatory time on one of the five working days following the Saturday of service.

This thought was inspired undoubtedly by the successful operation for a number of years past of the Sunday compensatory t me law and the compensatory holiday time law, which the Congress gave to the postal workers some years ago. Both of these laws brought much happiness and contentment to the postal employees, while at the same time they have undoubtedly inspired all who are involved with a compelling urge to increase their productivity. to raise their standards of efficiency, and thereby the service itself. dare say, has found the application of these laws of little or not financial burden, but rather, as a matter of fact, they have proven a real economy.

I was appointed to the position of substitute post-office clerk on September 22, 1892, and promoted to the regular force on December 14 of the same year. Throughout this entire period I have been actively identified with the Assoc ́ation of Post Office Clerks and feel that I have an appreciable understanding of the hardships that the association and the clerks have gone through during the years gone by. Because of this experience I feel constrained to state, and feel that I am not overstating the case, that at all times when the Congress was considering legislative proposals looking to the betterment of the working conditions of post-office clerks or other postal employees, that the Congress was always presened with a formidable statistical arrangement of figures which showed that the Postal Service, if not the entire Republic, was on the road to ruination and oblivion because of the fantastic demon termed "The postal deficit."

Much has been said by previous witnesses, either in their verbal statements or in briefs which they submitted, touching upon this phase of the question. The cause of the deficit in our judgment will always be a controversial matter. The association held its thirtieth annual convention in Baltimore, Md., during the week beginning Labor Day, September 2, 1929. The convention was honored with the presence and listened intently to the addresses of United States Senator George H. Moses, of New Hampshire, for some years chairman of the Senate Post Office Committee, now president pro tempore of the Senate, and chairman of the Senate Committee on Rules; First Assistant Postmaster General Arch Coleman, Third Assistant Postmaster General Frederic A. Tilton, and Fourth Assistant Postmaster General John W. Philp, and many other officials of the department and Members of Congress.

The addresses of Senator George H. Moses and Third Assistant Postmaster General Frederic A. Tilton were in a great part particularly directed at this question of the deficit, its causes and effect, and I am, therefore, incorporating in this brief a copy of the address of Senator Moses, followed by the address of Third Assistant Postmaster General Tilton.

[The Post Office Clerk. Published monthly by the United National Association of Post Office Clerks, unaffiliated. Mount Morris, Ill. October, 1929]

ADDRESS OF HON. GEORGE II. MOSES, UNITED STATES SENATOR REPRESENTING THE STATE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE

Mr. President and fellow postal workers, I suppose I am put on the program during the delivery of the speeches of welcome because Baltimore is a suburb of Washington [laughter], and inasmuch as it is a portion of Greater Washington I may say that the mayor has spoken truthfully of the attractions of this ward of the Capital City. [Laughter.]

My satisfaction in coming again into the company of the postal workers is diluted somewhat by the reflection that I am no longer chairman of the Senate Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads; but none the less my interest in the Postal Service and in those who compose it has by no means diminished. I retained my place upon that committee, and I hope that opportunities will be afforded me during the Seventy-first Congress to show again effectively my interest in those who make up the Postal Service. [Applause.]

The Postmaster General finds himself pursuing the iridescent dream which has haunted the pillow of all Postmasters General, namely, of making the Postal Service self-supporting. I wish him luck. [Laughter.] He spoke to me the other day of his plan, and I said, God go with you, because I can not." [Laughter.]

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In my opinion the people of the United States do not care a rap whether the Postal Service is in the red or in the black, so long as service is rendered. [Applause.] Still I am well aware that there are many instances in which economies and reforms could be affected in the Postal Service; but I want to serve notice here and now that no reforms and no economies are going to be effected which have to be effected through a reduction in the salary scale as it now exists. [Great applause.]

It took too much time, too much effort, to secure the victory which came to us in the winter of 1925, to see it now vitiated by any program, however ambitious.

What we want in the Postal Service, what those of us on Capitol Hill want to see in the Postal Service, is a recasting of the methods which you know, and I know, have clogged the service to an extent immeasurable. We know that the system of accounting in the Post Office Department to-day is archaic beyond words. By sworn testimony before a committee of which I had the honor to be the chairman, a high executive in the Post Office Department testified that it was impossible for the department to tell how much revenue they secured from any given class of mail.

What would the president of the Baltimore business men's association think of a wholesale dry-goods house which could not tell at the end of a year how much money it had received for silks or for velvets or for lace or for calico? If we are to approach any program of investigation which looks toward a reformation of the Postal Service or a reduction in its costs, I insist that we shall go to the fountain head of the trouble and reform the accounting system of the Post Office Department so that every user of the Postal Service may know exactly what the difficulty is.

We know, ladies and gentlemen, one place where there is no difficulty; the difficulty is not with the men and women who stand up to the cases and at the windows in the Postal Service. There are branches of the service which are unproductive. That does not apply to the clerks in the Postal Service; they have their regular duties and may count themselves lucky if they escape extra time and night work. They represent the backbone and the nervous system of the Postal Service which renders so much of benefit to the business of the country, as the mayor and the president of the business men's association have described.

The only trouble with their speeches, ladies and gentlemen, is that the mayor put his percentage pretty low when he said that 99,000 out of 100,000 letters get delivered. It is 99,999. [Applause.]

The mayor enters a demurrer; he says he did not say it. But that applies to whoever did say it. [Laughter.]

That is what the public expects from the Postal Service; that is what the public demands from the Postal Service; that is what the public is willing to pay for from the Postal Service, and any attempt to bring back again the conditions of low morale which surrounded the personnel of the Postal Service during the two years we were fighting for the salary bill should be resisted and will be resisted, and while I may not be the chairman of the committee, I will nevertheless be there. [Applause.]

But there are some other members of the Postal Service besides the clerks who require some attention. We overlooked the first-class postmaster, Mr. Woelper, in that salary bill, and we tried all through the Seventieth Congress to correct that omission; and may I ask of you ladies and gentlemen of this branch of the service if you won't give us a helping hand in this Congress to push forward speedily the postmasters' pay bill so that we can then be free and ready to take up the legislation which you desire. [Applause.]

The Postal Service, as I see it and as I have come to know its personnel all over the country, has for its motto, "All for one and one for all"; and inasmuch as we now know the omission made in the salary bill of February 28, 1925, let us all take hold, rectify that error, and then all start from scratch and enter upon the race for new benefits which can come only through legislation.

It was with regret for which I can find no adequate words of expression that I found myself compelled to give up the chairmanship of the Committee

on Post Offices and Post Roads. In the course of a long and varied career. I have had few things which gave me more satisfaction than to have helped, as a member and chairman of that committee, to make two successful fights for the reformation of the pay scale in the Postal Service. [Applause.]

My successor is as devoted to the interests of the service as any Senator can be. I am sure you will find that you will get from him the largest measure of cooperation in whatever you may seek. I am sure you will find that you will get from him always a complete and sympathetic reaction to every request which is founded upon reason; and may I say parenthetically that from this organization I have never had a request for postal legislation which was not founded upon reason. [Applause.] If a program is to be advanced in the Seventy-first Congress, I can assure those who represent you to your legislative committee that they will find always a courteous and sympathetic reception at the hands of Senator Phipps, the new chairman. [Applause.]

The personnel of the committee has not greatly changed. I have moved from the head of the table to the seat immediately beside the chairman. I may not speak so often, but I hope to speak with equal clarity of purpose. [Applause.] I may not be in position to decide the course of legislation as it comes before the committee, but I do hope to be in position always to help advance any legislation for a good cause, and I beg of you, ladies and gentlemen of the association, not to believe that my surrendering of the chairmanship means in any sense my surrender of duty toward the Postal Service, and above all, I beg of you in no wise to diminish those bonds of respect and affection which you have permitted to grow up between the officers and members of this association and me. [Prolonged applause, the delegates rising.]

ADDRESS OF HON. FREDERICK A. TILTON, THIRD ASSISTANT POSTMASTER GENERAL Mr. President and members of the United National Order of Post Office Clerks, I am extremely pleased and proud to be here and address you to-day. I have a speech to deliver which was not intended for you. At the other convention I went in hurriedly and delivered your speech to them. [Laughter.] In just recognition of the usual courtesy, I must deliver their speech to you. [Laughter.] However, both speeches are poor enough, and no one need feel that they are badly hurt.

I can not measure up to the last speaker. He is a trained man, an old battle horse, who has been in the service for eight years in the post-office service— and he has been something of a politician all his life-in fact, he has run for Congress. [Laughter.] Why he was not elected, I do not know.

I have heard that during his campaign, after one of his speeches, someone was talking about his speech and another fellow had not heard it and asked, "Did he put much fire in his speech?

The man that had heard the speech said, "Yes; but he did not put enough of his speech in the fire." [Laughter.] However, that is not to be said of his latest speech here to you to-day.

I am here in the capacity of a novice and I drink in all the postal information I can get, and I listened attentively to what he had to say. If I have anything to commend me as material for the office which I now hold, it is not my knowledge of postal affairs, although I have always watched postal affairs keenly and have grown to have a very high admiration for the service which the postal department has given, for the expedition with which it gets its mail to you and the few errors that are made. In my whole business experience, I can not recall a single letter that was not delivered to me on time, and I have talked with others who have the same viewpoint with respect to postal efficiency.

However, to read the newspapers, one would not have the same high regard for postal efficiency. When the subject of the post-office deficit was brought up recently, the newspapers differed greatly in their comments, and some criticized the lack of efficiency within the department. That certainly is not true as to their delivery of mail. It may be true as to some of the working organizations and the efficiency within the organization, which might be expressed in the term " operations."

It is apparent that the Post Office Department must balance its budget if it is to pay its way. However, it is also apparent that in the past the question of balancing its budget has not always been controlling.

During the hearings on the last appropriation bill, the comptroller of the department, Mr. Buffington, pointed out that the post office deficit, which in the preceding year had been $32,121,095.80, would be increased by several items resulting from recent legislation, among which were night work differential paid to employees at post offices, applying to clerks at first and second class post offices, $3 300,000; city delivery of letters, $335,000; watchmen, messengers, and laborers, $2,000; vehicle service, $275 000; Railway Mail Service salaries, $2,250,000, or a total of $6,360,000 representing an increase in salaries alone.

The other items which the comptroller pointed out increased the apparent deficit, including those I have named, by an amount of $33,633,363, and at the same time there was effective an estimated loss in revenue, due to decrease in postal rates under the postal rate bill, effective July 1, 1928, and $16,285,000, or a total increase in the deficit of $49,918,363.

Those anticipated additions to the deficit, as pointed out by the comptroller, have been increased somewhat in the actual operation so that the deficit is now around $90,000,000.

There are items contributing to the deficit which, as a matter of good bookkeeping, I hope to be influential in throwing out. The Government carries the newspapers free in county, and, as near as can be estimated, by a cost ascertainment, at a cost of $10,000,000.

In pointing out these things, I am not advocating the discontinuance of any of these items. They all have their merits and have a long history and precedent behind them, and I am not entering into any controversial matters, but simply as a matter of bookkeeping and policy, these items should be separated from the deficit in measuring the results of the Post Office Department operation. There is a loss in the carrying of foreign mails of $4,500,000. There is a loss in the carrying of the penalty matter for all departments of about $7,000,000, of which one-half is estimated to apply to departments other than the postal department. There is carried, as estimated or as computed by the cost ascertainment, in Army mail $500,000, and the merchant marine cost, in excess of the usual cost when carried in foreign boats, will amount, on June 30, 1929, to $7,500,000 excess.

We are at present prepared to test the cost of mail carried by airplane. This is the first real cost ascertainment. Any figures in respect to lost time carrying mail by air to-day would be pure estimates, but on that basis we figure a basis of $10,000,000.

These items, counting the $36,000 000, should not be charged against the postal deficit as a matter of pure postal operation.

The amount of the deficit is put on my doorstep to solve. The solution of the deficit is not entirely within my power or any other individual's power. Congress controls the rates of postage, and a great many of the items of expense are not matters of bookkeeping but are actual expenses which can not be disposed of.

I dare say that by process of elimination there are two methods of approach to the decrease of the deficit. One is by increasing rates and the other by reducing expenses. As I have said, the matter of rates rests with Congress largely. The matter of expenses should be analyzed and these extraneous items thrown out, and then if there is inefficiency shown anywhere along the line, it should be discovered.

The matter of a survey of offices to discover any inefficiency is a slow matter. The accounts are not properly arranged to enable us to tell, on the face of them, how the various offices compare. There is no general measure of efficiency which can be assumed from any figures w thin the department. The fact that one office has larger postal revenues than the other and a high ratio of revenues to expenses does not necessarily mean that that office is operating efficiently, because there may be conditions surrounding the office which are entirely unusual.

I dare say that if any one group of the whole organization were approached as to whether it was respons ble for any part of the deficit or any part of the loss arising from operation, they would deny that they were responsible. Perhaps by process of elimination my office can determine where the deficit rests. We will approach each group separately, taking the postmasters first. They, of course, will deny that they are responsible in any respect for any inefficiency in the service. I told the supervisors that they probably would deny that in their branch there was any inefficiency, and inasmuch as they were responsible for your efforts, perhaps you would deny that you were responsible, and consequently it must rest in the other departments, such as railway mail or rural free delivery. [Laughter.]