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Senator THURMOND. Mr. Chairman, we would like for these papers to be furnished to the committee so that we can consider them in executive session. It seems to be the only way we can make a determination to our satisfaction about these matters.

Senator STENNIS. To which papers are you directing this last statement, Senator?

Senator THURMOND. The National Security Council papers.

Senator STENNIS. The papers which have been approved already by the National Security Council ?

Senator THURMOND. Yes.

Senator STENNIS. Mr. Ball, I am not sure that I understand just how this matter is kept. Are papers that are approved by the National Security Council enunciations of policy!

Mr. BALL. These are enunciations of policy based on considerations by the National Security Council, and they represent Presidential decisions.

Senator STENNIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, I am in the position where I would have to say very respectfully to this committee that if they want access to those papers they would have to address a request to the President himself.

Senator STENNIS. Yes. Well, that is the point I was going to say that was involved, I imagine. These papers, as I understand it, are about as high level as papers can be, is that right?

Mr. BALL. That is right. They are decisions of the National Security Council over which the President presides.

Senator STENNIS. And it would be the fact that he would be the only one who could rule on it?

Mr. BALL. He would be the only one to do that.
Senator STENNIS. Their disclosure.
Mr. BALL. That is right.

Senator STENNIS. All right. Then as far as you are concerned, as a witness before this subcommittee, your position is that it is beyond your authority?

Mr. BALL. I do not have control over these papers, Mr. Chairman. Senator STENNIS. All right.

Senator THURMOND. Mr. Chairman, if Mr. Ball will not furnish these papers, then I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that you request the President to furnish them to the committee to use in executive session.

Senator STENNIS. All right. I think that request puts the matter strictly before the subcommittee, Senator, and we will discuss that further in closed session.


Senator THURMOND. There are only two more witnesses, so far as I know, to wind it up. One is Mr. Atkinson that I spoke to you about, and the other witness, Mr. Sylvester.

We would like for him to be recalled, and I think that will complete our hearings, so far as I am concerned.

Senator STENNIS. We certainly will recall Mr. Sylvester, Senator. But certainly the Chair is surprised that you now have additional witnesses here when we have been spending every effort to finish today.

Senator THURMOND. Mr. Atkinson and Mr. Sylvester.

Senator STENNIS. I would have had Mr. Sylvester here now if I had known it. Frankly, the Chair just can't go on indefinitely with prolonged examinations and hearings.

If it had known, it would have had Mr. Sylvester here now.

Regarding Mr. Atkinson, I never have understood just what the purpose was of having him in.

I picked it up somewhere that he was to be called in to give an evaluation of some of the testimony. Is that correct? Is that the purpose ?

Senator THURMOND. I think he has filed a statement here with the committee.

Senator STENNIS. Perhaps that is where I got the idea.
Senator THURMOND. But I don't think his statement-

Senator STENNIS. I will just be frank about it. If there is anybody to be called in to give an evaluation of the testimony, that is exactly what the subcommittee is for.

Senator THURMOND. If the chairman rules out that portion, then we would be restricted, the subcommittee would be restricted, then to other portions that I would like to examine him on.

Senator STENNIS. That is a matter of someone evaluating this testimony. It is up to this subcommittee to do its best to do that. Will not his statement then serve the purpose? I do not know. I haven't seen his statement. I haven't heard it discussed in a long time.

Senator THURMOND. You might look at the statement, Mr. Chair


Senator STENNIS. This subcommittee is up against the practical point, Senator, of fixing some kind of limit on concluding this testimony at some time, and I understood we were down to that point with Mr. Ball, that he would conclude the testimony.

Senator THURMOND. I think we mentioned before that we might have some cleanup witnesses. But I mentioned all the time Mr. Atkinson.

Senator STENNIS. Tomorrow morning I have already agreed to attend a meeting, and tomorrow afternoon I have another meeting.

Call Mr. Sylvester and see if he is in his office, please. Will you agree to meet me here in the morning at 9 o'clock? We will take Mr. Sylvester for an hour then.

Senator THURMOND. Mr. Chairman, we are going to have a good many questions to ask him when he comes back, and I mean an hour or 2 hours would not be sufficient with him.

Senator STENNIS. I am frank to say, gentlemen, I think we have got to confine our examinations hereafter as much as we reasonably can to an examination of facts and not to make arguments. going to ask the witnesses to do the same. This is a fact finding group, and we want to get any new facts. I know you will agree with me

But there is scarcely time around here for us to just go on and on

Senator THURMOND. Those are the only two we have to wind up, and I don't think Mr. Atkinson would take too long.

Senator STENNIS. I have tried to lean over backward here to let every member of the subcommittee ask questions. A great many matters have been gone into. I wanted to be liberal in that respect.

I am

on that.

and on.

A great many things have been said here that I thought were not good points, but I want to keep it open now for any reasonable testimony.

Senator THURMOND. Mr. Chairman, you remember the night Mr. Sylvester was here, we ran late and we didn't quite get through with him.

Senator STENNIS. We will get him back.

Senator THURMOND. We just agreed to put Mr. Atkinson's statement in the record without calling him, just put his statement in the record.

Senator STENNIS. I would want to see his statement because somewhere I got the idea that he was attempting to evaluate the testimony.

Senator THURMOND. I think I mentioned to you I wanted to bring somebody for that purpose. I think I mentioned to Mr. Kendall that I might want to use him for that purpose. But the statement doesn't do that, and that will save time, if that will help any.

Senator STENNIS. Let the two of us look over Mr. Atkinson's statement and, perhaps, that will settle it. We will put it in the record, and we won't have to call him.

I learn that Mr. Sylvester is not in his office.
We are through with Mr. Ball, is that correct?
Senator THURMOND. Yes, Mr. Chairman.


Senator STENNIS. All right, Mr. Secretary, with the thanks of the subcommittee you are excused.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Chairman, there were two or three questions that Senator Thurmond asked on which we have prepared answers under an agreement with him. If my staff can work with Mr. Kendall we will get the answers supplied for the record.

Senator STENNIS. Send those in.

Senator THURMOND. The questions you wanted answered in executive session, you can send them to Mr. Kendall.

Mr. Ball. There were some I said that I would want to so answer.
Senator THURMOND. Thank you, Mr. Secretary.
Senator STENNIS. Thank you, Mr. Secretary.

Senator Thurmond, perhaps the probabilities are that there won't be anyone here at the hearing tomorrow anyway, even if we can get it in. But suppose we take a chance on getting Mr. Sylvester here at 9 o'clock. We can at least question him from 9 until 10. I have got to go then to Appropriations; and you and I both have to go to Armed Services tomorrow afternoon.

Senator THURMOND. Since this is the last witness, Mr. Chairman, frankly we have, as you know, from the work we have done here, we have really been working day and night.

Senator STENNIS. You have done a lot of work.

Senator THURMOND. If you could set it for Thursday, give me a day when I can get back

Senator STENNIS. Senator, I will tell you, I think in the interests of all of us, we should get this hearing closed and get on toward a report.

Senator THURMOND. I have got to go to South Carolina over the weekend.


Senator STENNIS. What about the weekend?

Senator THURMOND. I agreed to speak to Boys State Saturday and Sunday.

Senator STENNIS. Let us try to get him in here tomorrow.

Senator THURMOND. Election is Tuesday, and we can finish in a half day or certainly a day anyway with him, I think, and it is my thinking that if we just brought him in either Wednesday or Thursday

Senator STENNIS. If he can be here tomorrow, Senator, let us try to take care of him tomorrow. I believe in keeping the train moving, and we could have him called in, ask him to come back at noon, and then after we get through with the Armed Services Committee, we could finish tomorrow afternoon. If we can't finish tomorrow afternoon, we will finish tomorrow night.

Senator THURMOND. All right. We can start with him in the morning. If we don't get through with him we can carry it over until next week.

Senator STENNIS. All right. We will do the best we can tomorrow.

All right, the subcommittee will take a recess subject to the call of the Chair.

(Whereupon, at 6:35 p.m., the subcommittee adjourned, subject to the call of the Chair.)



FRIDAY, JUNE 8, 1962


Washington, D.C. The special subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 9:10 a.m., in room 224, Old Senate Office Building.

Present: Senators Stennis (chairman of the subcommittee), Thurmond, and Bartlett.

Also present: Special subcommittee staff: James T. Kendall, chief counsel.

Senator STENNIS. The subcommittee will please come to order.

Mr. Sylvester, we are glad to have you here, and particularly that you could come in on such short notice. We will proceed now. You remember, we carried over some questions here the night it snowing.

Mr. Sylvester, there may be other questions Senator Thurmond
Senator THURMOND. He has already been sworn.
Senator STENNIS. Yes.


may have.





Senator THURMOND. The Secretary of Defense told this subcommittee on September 6, 1961, that the Department of Defense had received some 20 to 30 letters in the previous 4 weeks complaining of the military participation in civilian cold war educational projects. The Secretary said:

Many of the complaints have been specific, but relating to the character of a particular problem. Why did the Defense Department appear to be associated with X, a particular individual or a particular program of some kind? Or why did we make available the use of base Y for such and such purposes?

I understand that the answers to these “20–30 letters” were dispatched under your signature. Some were complaints; others were not, such as this letter to Mr. Singleton who had proposed the Ar

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