ance of the act of the Senate, then had on the suspension under the same law, by the same Secretary.

For myself, I stand ready to make the challenge in this stage of the case, to say that if the Tenure of Office act is to be considered a valid act, the attempt to remove Mr. Stanton is itself a misdemeanor, not simply at the common law, but by the laws of the United States. I am not surprised that that utterance was made here at this stage of the case, after the counsel for the defense had closed his argument, and ventured to declare that an attempt to commit a misdemeanor, made such by the law, was not itself a crime consummated by the very attempt, and was not of itself a misdemeanor.

The only question before the Senate is, whether it is competent for an accused criminal, high or lew, after the fact charged, to make evidence for himself by his own declarations to a co-conspirator, or to anybody else. The rule has been settled in every case that ever has been tried heretofore, that in the general law of evidence appointed for a common law proceeding cover these proceedings. If there is an exception to be found to that, in trials of this kind. I challenge its production.

The Chief Justice said he would submit the question to the Senate, and the yeas and nays having been ordered the question was taken upon allowing the question to be put, and decided in the affirmative. Yeas, 41; nays, 10-as follows:

YEAS.-Messrs. Anthony, Bayard, Buckalew Cattell, Cole, Conkling, Corbett, Davis, Dixon, Doolittle, Edwards, Ferry, Fessenden, Fowler, Frelinghuysen, Grimes, Henderson, Hendricks, Howe, Johnson, McCreery, Morgan, Morrill (Me.), Morrill (Vt.), Morton, Norton, Patterson (N. H.), Patterson (Tenn.), Pomeroy, Ross, Sherman, Sprague, Stewart, Sumner, Tipton, Trumbull, Van Winkle, Vickers, Willey, Williams, Wilson and Yates-2.

NAYS.-Messrs. Cameron, Chandler, Conness, Cragin, Drake, Harlan, Howare, Nye, Ramsey and Thayer-10. So the question was put to the witness as follows: Q. What occurred between the President and yourself on the 21st of February? A. I stated to the 'resident that I had delivered the communication, and that he gave this

answer.

Q. What answer? A. The answer, "Do you wish me to Vacate at once, or will you give me time to take away my private property?" and that I answered "at your pleasure" I then stated, that after delivering the copy of the letter to him, he said, "I do not know whether I will obey your instructions or resist them;" the President's answer was, "Very, well, go on and take charge of the office, and perform the duty" that was all that passed; this was immediately after giving the second letter to Mr. Stanton; the next morning I was arrested before I had my breakfast; the officer, at my request, accompanied me to see the President; I went to the room where the President was, and stated that I had been arrested, at whose suit I did not know.

Mr. BUTLER (to the witness)--Stop a moment.

To the Chief Justice Does the presiding officer understand the ruling of the Senate to apply to what took place the next day?

The Cief Justice-The Chief Justice so understands it. Mr. STANBERY (to witness)-Go on.

Witness-The President said, "Very well; that is the place I want it, in the event;" he advised me then to go to you, (meaning Mr. Stanbery), and the Marshal permitted me to go to your quarters at the hotel; I told you I had been arrested, and asked you what I should do.

Mr. BUTLER again interrupted the witness, and asked the Chief Justice whether that was within the rules, Mr. STANBERY-It is a part of the conspiracy. (Laughtor.)

Mr. BUTLER-I have no doubt of it. (Laughter.) Mr. STANBERY, to the witness-Did you go into the court? A. I presented myself to Judge Cartter.

Q. What happened then?

Mr. BUTLER I object.

Mr. STANBERY, to witness-Were you admitted to bail in $5000? A. I was then discharged from custody; but there is one point which I wish to state, if admisible; I asked the judge distinctly what that bail meant. Mr. BUTLER to witness-"Stop a minute." To the Chief Justice "Does your honor allow that?" $ Mr. STANTON to witness-That is another part of the case." Q. How long did you remain there? A I suppose I was there altogether about an hour; my friends came in to give bail; I had nobody with me, not even my wife.

Q. After you were admitted to bail, did you go to the War Department that day, the 22d? A. I did; I think the other matter I was going to mention, is material to ine.

Mr. BUTLER-I will withdraw the objection, if the witness thinks it material to him.

Mr. STANBERY (to witness)-Very well; what is the explanation you wish to make?

Witness-I asked the Judge what it meant, and he said it was simply to present myself at ten o'clock the follow Ing Wednesday; I then asked if it suspended me from any of my functions; he said it had nothing to do with them; that is the point I wanted to make. (Laughter in the court.)

Q. State when you next went to the War Department that day? A. I went immediately to the President's after giving bail, and stated the facts to him. He made the same answer "Very well, I wanted to get it into the courts." I then went to the War Office, and found the eastern door locked: this was on the 22d; I asked the mes Benger for the key, and he told me that he hadn't it; I then went to Mr. Stanton's room-the one which he occupies as an office-and found him there with some six or eight gentlemen; some of them I recognized, and I understood

that they were all members of Congress; they were all sitting; I told the Secretary of War that I came to demand the office; he refused to give it to me and ordered me to my room as Adjutant-General; I refused to obey; I made the demand a second and third time, and was still refused, and ginduced to go to my own room; he then said, "yon can stand there as long as you please" I left the room and went into the office of General Schriver, and had a chat with him, as he is an old friend: Mr. Stanton followed me in there, and Governor Moorhead, a mem ber of Congress from Pittsburg, Pa., came in; Mr. Stanton told Governor Moorhead to note the conversation, and I think he took notes of it at a side table; he asked me pretty much the same questions as before, whether I insisted on acting as Secretary of War, and whether I claimed the office? I gave the direct answer, and there was some little chat between the Secretary of War and myself. Q. Did other members of Congress withdraw then? Tell us what happened between you and the Secretary of War after they withdrew, A. I do not recollect what first occurred, but I said to him, "the next time you have me arrested (for I found it was at his suit I was arrested)-

Mr. BUTLER-I object to the conversation between the Secretary of War and General Thomas at a time which we have not put in, because we put in only the time when the other gentlemen were there. and this was something which took place after they had withdrawn.

The Chief Justice-If it was immediately afterwards, it was a part of the same conversation.

Mr. BUTLER-Does General Thomas say it was the same conversation?

Witness-Mr. Stanton listened to me, and got talking in a very familiar manner to me; I said the next time you have me arrested, please don't do it until I get something to eat (Laughter); I have had nothing to eat or drink today (continued langhter); he put his arm around my neck, as he used to do, in a familiar manner, and ran his hand through my hair, and turne around to General Schriver and said, "Schriver, have you got a bottle here? bring it out" (Roars of laughter); Schriver unlocked his desk and took out a small vial; the Secretary then proposed we should have a spoonful of whisky; I said I would like a little; General Schriver poured it out into a tumbler and divided it equally.

Mr. STANBERY-Q. He shared it then? A. He took the glasses up this way (indicating), and measured them with his eye; presently a messenger came in with a full bottle of whisky, and the cork was drawn and he and I took a drink together.

Q. Was that all the force exhibited that day? A. That was all.

Q. Have you at any time attempted to use force to get into that office? A. At no time.

A. Have you ever had instructions from the President to use force, intimidations or threats?

Mr. BUTLER "Stop a moment. At any time; that brings it down to to-day; but suppose the ruling does not come down so far as that. Ask the witness what occurred prior to the 21st or 224 of February. I am content.

Mr. STANBERY-Wes, we will say up to the 9th of March.

Mr. BUTLER The 9th of March is past, as decided as it would be; say till the day the President was impeached on the 22d of February; but suppose he had got up his case then?

Mr. EVARTS-We have a right to negative up to the point for which you have given any positive evidence, which is the 9th of March.

Mr. BUTLER-We have given no evidence as to what instructions were given by the President. We have given the evidence of what Mr. Thomas said, but if there is anything in any rule of law, this testimony cannot be admitted.

Mr. EVARTS-The point, if anything, Mr. Chief Justice, on which Mr. Karsener was allowed to state the interview between General Thomas and himself, on the 9th of March was that General Thomas' statement then made might be held to, either from something that had been proved on the part of the managers, or from something that would be proved on the part of the managers, a committal of the President. Now, certainly, under the rulings, as well as under the necessary principles of law and of justice, the President is entitled to a negative through the witness who knows anything that has been proved as to what occurred between the President and this witness,

Mr. BUTLER--I do not propose to argue any further, for if the point is not sufficiently clear to everybody, no argument can make it plainer. I simply object to the question as to what had been the directions of the President down to the 7th of March, after he was impeached.

Mr. EVARTS said, the point is that we negatively can show up to and including the date which they have given in evidence what they claim to implicate the President, that the President had not given any instructions to use force.

Mr. BUTLER-How does that prove that Gen. Thomas did not say so?

Mr. EVARTS-It only proves that he said it without the authority of the President, which is the main point. The Chief Justice directed Mr. Stanbery to reduce his question to writing.

Mr. STEVENS remarked in a low tone, "Oh, it is not worth while to appeal to the Senate after that decision,"

The question was read-Did the President at any time prior to or including the 9th of March, authorize you to use force, intimidation or threats to get possession of the War Office?

The question was put to the Senate, and decided in the affirmative, without a division, The witness then re

plied-He did not. He also said in conversation with Mr. Burleigh or Mr. Wilkson, he could not tell which, he had said, that if I found my door locked, I would break it would and to the officer I said that I open; call on General Grant for forces; I have got this conversation mixed up, and cannot separate them; he then described the interview with Mr. Kareener at the Presi dent's levee on the 9th of March, when Karsener claimed acquaintance; witness said. I tried to get away from him, but he then said he was a Delawarian, and said the eyes of all Delaware are on you, and they expect you to stand fast; I said certainly, I will stand firm; he put the same question a second time, and then said:-Are you going to kick this fellow out? and I said, "Oh! we'll kick hin: out by and by."

Q. Are you certain the kicking out came from him first? A. Certainly, eir; but I did not mean any disrespect to Mr. Stanton at all; I said it smilingly, and I was very glad to get away from him.

In cross-examination witness disclaimed any unkind feeling towards Mr. Stanton; General Grant had recommended his being retired, but the President did not set him aside.

Q. Did you ever ask Mr. Stanton to restore you to office? A. No, I did not.

Q. With the kind feeling you had to him all the time did you not ask Mr. Stanton to restore you to office? A. No, I did not.

Q. With the kind feeling you had to him all the time, why did you not ask him? A. I knew perfectly well that my services on special business was very important; I knew that Mr. Stanton said himself that I was the ouly one that could do the work, and that he, therefore, sent me; I did not ask Mr. Stanton to restore me, because I did not suppose he wanted me in the office. although there was no unkind feeling; the President sent for me on the 18th of February, three days before I received the order: I never had an intimation before the 18th that the President had any idea of making me Secretary of War.

Mr. BUTLER-Did you not swear before the committee that you had a previous intimation? A. I afterwards made a correction in that paper.

Mr. BUTLER-Excuse me, I did not ask you about corrections, but what you swore to? A. I swore that I had received an intimation, but I found that it was not so, when I came to look at my testimony; the intimation that I received was about the AdjutantGeneral's oflice, which was made some few weeks before the occurrence; I swore that I received an intimation from Colonel Moore: I cannot give the time, it was in the course of two or three weeks; when I swore, the restoration of Adjutant-General and the appointment of Secretary of War ad interim was on my mind: when I was examined, I thought the appointment as Secretary would cease, because it had been intimated to me by the President; I told him I would obey his orders, because he was Commander-in-Chief; I did not make this response on receiving other commissions, as they were ordinary ones, and this was an extraordinary one, as I never had one of that kind before. (Laughter.)

Q. Did you go to Mr. Stanton between the 18th and 21st, and tell him you were going to take his place? A. No, sir; I was at the War Department every day in the meantime; on the 21st the President sent for me again, but I had no suspicion as to what he wanted me for, and after giving me the two papers, the notice to Mr. Stanton and the appointment of myself as Secretary ad interim, they being first read by Colonel Moore, the President said, "I shall uphold the Constitution and the laws, and I expect you to do the same;" I said, "Certainly I shall do so, and @hall obey your orders."

Q. Let me see if I have got this. The President, you say, came out with two papers, which he handed to Colonel Moore: Colonel Moore read them, and the Presi dent then said: "I am going to uphold the Constitution and the law, and I want you to do the same." and you said, "I will obey your orders." Why did you put in that about obeying his orders? A. I suppose it was very natural.

Q. What next was said? A. He told me to go to Mr. Stanton, and deliver the papers to him.

Q. Which you did? A. Yes.

Q. At that first interview, before you left the building, Mr. Stanton gave you a letter. A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then you knew that he did not intend to give up the office? A. I did.

Q. You so understood fully? A. Yes.

8. You went back and reported that to the President?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you report to him that Mr. Stanton did not mean to give up the office? A. I reported to him exactly what Mr. Stanton had said.

Q. Did he not ask you what you thought about it? A. He did not.

Did you tell him? A. I did not.

You reported the same facts to him which made the impression on your own mind that Mr. Stanton was not going to give up the office? A. I did; I reported the facts of the conversation.

Q. Did you tell him about the letter? A. No.

Q. Why did you not? A. I did not suppose it necessary. Mr BUTLER-Why here was a letter ordering you to desist.

Mr. STANBERY-I object to your arguing to the witness. Ask him the question.

Mr. BUTLER Please wait till the question is asked before you object.

To the Witness-Q. You had a letter which showed that

your acts were illegal, and which convinced you, as you вау. Mr. STANBERY-(Interrupting)-Reduce the question to writing.

Mr. BUTLER--I shall not be able to reduce it to writing if you don't stop interrupting me. To the witness-Q. You had a letter from Mr. Stanton, which, together with other facts convinced vou that Mr. Stanton did not intend to give up the office; now with that letter in your pocket, why did you not report it to your chief? A. I did not think it was necessary; I reported the conversation.

Q. Did you tell the President that Mr. Stanton had given orders to General Schriver and General Townsend not to obey you? A. I think I did.

Q. Have you any doubt about it in your own mind? A. I don't think I have any doubt about it.

Q. So that I understand you to say the President replied. "Very well; go on and take possession of the office?" A. I think so.

Q. Was there anything more said? A. I think not, at that time.

Q. You went away? A. Yes,

Q. About what time of the day was that? A. About one or two o'clock.

Q. You told Mr. Wilkeson that you meant to call on General Grant for a military force to take possession of the office: did you mean that, or was it mere rhodomon tade? A. I suppose I did not mean it; I have never had it in my head to use force.

Q. You did not mean it? A. No.

Q. Was it merely boast and brag? A. Yes.

Q. Did you again tell him that you intended to use force to get into the office? A. That I do not recollect; I stated it to him once, I know.

Q. Can you not tell whether you bragged to him again that evening? A. I did not brag to him.

Q. Did you not tell him at Willard's that you meant to use force? A. I told him either at Willard's or at my own house; I do not think I told him more than once. Q. You saw Mr. Burleigh that evening? A. Yes, sir. Did you tell him that you meant to use force? A. The expression that I used was. that if I found my doors locked, I would break them open.

५.

Q. Did he not put the question to you in this form-What would you do if Stanton did not go out? and did you not say you would put him out? A. I suppose I did, but I am not certain.

Q. Did he not then say-Suppose he bars the door? and did not you say you would break the door down, and was that brag? A. No, that was not brag: I meant it then.

Q. You had got over the brag at that time? A. When I had this conversation with Mr. Burleigh I felt it. Q. And at that time vou really meant to go on and break down the doors. A. Yes, if they were locked. Q. And you reallly meant to use force? A. I meant what I said.

Q. What you said to him you meant in good, solemn earnest? A. Yes.

Q. There was no rhodomontade then? A. No.

Q. And having got over the playful part of it, and think ing the matter over, you come to the conclusion to use force, and having come to that conclusion, why did not you use it? A. Because I reflected that it would not answer: I might produce difficulty.

Q. What kind of difficulty? A. I suppose bloodshed.
Q. What else? A. Nothing else.

Q. Then by dificulty you mean bloodshed? A. If I used force I supposed I would be resisted by force, and blood might have been issued; that is my answer.

Q. What time did you leave Mr. Burleigh, or Burleigh leave you? A. It was after night when he came there; his visit was a very short one.

Q. About what time did he leave? A. About nine o'clock, I suppose.

Q. How long was it after Mr. Burleigh left; was it be fore you left to go to the masquerade ball? A. I went there, I think, about half-past nine o'clock.

Q. Did you see anybody of your own family between the time that Mr. Burleigh left and the time you started for the ball? A. Yes.

Q. Who? A. A little girl next door was going with my young daughter to a masquerade ball, and I went with them.

Q. You did not discuss this matter with them? A. I did not.

Q. Did you discuss it with anybody after you left Mr. Burleigh? A. I did not.

Q. A masquerade ball is not a good place to discuss high ministerial duties, is it? A, I should think not; I went there solely to take charge of my little girl and to throw off care; I had promised her two days before.

Q. Did you consult anybody after you left Mr. Burleigh? A. I did not.

Q. The last that you told anybody on this question was when you told Burleigh in solemn earnest that you were going to use force, and then you went to the ball, and from thence to bed, and saw nobody the next morning until the Marshal came, why did you change your mind from your solemn determination to use force? A. changed it soon after, but cannot say when I had changed before I was arrested, and had determined not to use force. Q. Did you tell Mr. Burleigh that the reason you did not use force was because you had been arrested? A. I do not think that I did; I had no doubt that Mr. Stanton would obtain possession, force would have to be used. resist any attempt to take possession by force, and that to

Q. Did you report this conclusion to the President? A. I did not think it necessary; I never asked the President

for advice or for orders; I had four interviews with Mr. Stanton, and every time, Mr. Stanton refused I suggested to the President that the true plan would be in otder to get possession of the papers, to call upon Gen. Grant; I wrote a draft of an order on General Grant and left it with the President.

Q. Did you sign it? A. Yes; the letter is dated the 10th of March; I had spoken to the President before about the matter, and the letter was to be issued as my order, and it was left for the consideration of the President; it was a peaceable order, and I had no idea any bloodshed would grow out of it; I have attended Cabinet meetings, and been recognized continually as Secretary ad interim by the President and Heads of Department down to the present hour.

Q. And all your action as Secretary ad interim has been confined to attending Cabinet meetings? A. I joined in the ordinary conversation that took place at the meetings, but I don't know that I gave him any particular advice; he asked me several times if I had any business to lay before him, but I never had any. (Laughter.)

Q. The President did not agree to send that notice to General Grant, did he? A. When I first spoke to him about it, I told him that the mode of getting possession of the paper was to write a note to General Grant, asking him to issue an order calling upon the heads of bureaus, as they were military men, to send him communications designed for the President or for the Secretary of War; that was one mode.

Q. What was the other mode that you suggested? A. The other mode was to require the mails to be delivered from the post office to me.

Q. And he told you to draw up the order? A. No; he did not.

Q. But you did so? A. I did it of myself after having

this conversation.

Q. And did he agree to that suggestion of yours? A. He said he would take it and think about it, and he put the paper upon his desk.

Q. When was that? That was on the 10th.

Q. Has he ever spoken to you about that order since? A. I think I may have mentioned it.

Q. Did he ever ask you to know where the troops were about Washington? A. He never did.

Q. Or who had charge of them? A. He never did.

Did you tell Colonel Moore that you were going to the ball? A. I think net; he may have known that I was going, for I had secured tickets for my children some days before.

Q. Did the President, in any of those interviews with you as his Cabinet counselor or Cabinet adviser, suggest to you that he had not removed Mr. Stanton? A. Never; he always said that Mr. Stauton was out of office.

Q. Did he ever tell you you were not appointed? A. No sir.

A.

Have you not always known you were appointed? Yes, sir.

Q. Has he not over and over again told you that you were appointed? A. Not over and over again; I do not know that that came up at all.

Q. Will you tell what you meant when you told the President that you were going to uphold the Constitution and the laws? A. I meant that I would be governed by the Constitution and the laws made in pursuance thereof. Q. And did you include in that the Tenure of Office act? A. Yes, so far as it applied to me.

Q. You had that in your mind at the time? A. Not particularly in my mind.

Q. Did the President at any time when you have seen him give you any directions, other than those about taking Dossession of the War office? A. He has told me on seve ral occasions that he wanted to get some nominations sent up which are lying on Mr. Stanton's table, and he could not get them; he did not get them.

Q. What did he tell you about them? A. I could not get them.

Q. And he could not so far as you know? A. So far as I know.

Q. And he complained to you? A. No; he died not complain; he said he wanted them as some of them were going over; I twice said to Mr. Stanton that the President wanted these nominations, and he said he would see to it; this was while acting as Adjutant-General; the testimony given by Mr. Karsener was read to me, and I wis arked if it was correct, and I did not object to any words as incorrect; I objected to manner, and said that I did not use the word "kicking," but that it was Karsener said it; Mr. Karsener was called up at that time and asked by the tye managers whether his manner was playful, and he said it seemed serious.

The cross-examination was continued for some time longer, and being closed, the court adjourned.

PROCEEDINGS OF SATURDAY, APRIL 11.

The managers and some eight or ten members of the House were in attendance this morning. After the reading of the journal,

The Twenty-first Rule.

Mr. BINGHAM rose and made a motion on the part of the managers, speaking in an inaudible tone, to

which fact Senator CONKLING called attention. By the direction of the Chief Justice, he then reduced it to writing, as follows:

The managers move the Senate to so amend rule twenty-first as to allow such of the managers as desire to be heard, and also such of the counsel of the President as desire to be heard, to speak on the final arguments, and objecting to the provision of the rule that the final argument shall be opened and closed by the managers on the part of the House.

The Chief Justice stated the question,

Senator POMEROY-If that is in the nature of a resolution, under our general rules it should lie over one day for consideration.

The Chief Justice was understood to coincide in the opinion.

Mr. BUCKALEW moved that it be laid over until Monday.

Mr. EDMUNDS inquired of the Chair whether the twenty-first rule does not now provide by its terms that this privilege may be extended to the managers and counsel, and whether, therefore, any amendment of the rule is necessary?

The Chief Justice replied in the affirmative, and said he had heard no motion to that effect.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN moved that such an order be adopted.

Mr. POMEROY-I have no objection to taking the vote now.

The Chief Justice--The Senator will reduce his motion to writing.

Mr. SHERMAN-If it is in order, I will move that the twenty-first rule be relaxed, so as to allow persons on each side to speak on the final argument.

The Chief Justice decided the motion out of order for the present, and Mr.Frelinghuysen having reduced his motion to writing, it was read, as follows:

Ordered, That as many of the managers and counsel for the President be permitted to speak on the final argument as shall desire to do so.

Mr. HOWARD hoped it would lie over until Monday.

Several Senators-No! no! let us vote on it.
Mr. HOWARD-I object to it.

Mr. TRUMBULL said it did not change the rule, and therefore could not be required to lie over.

The Chief Justice decided that, objection having been made, it must lie over.

Mr. CONKLING-May I inquire under what rule it is that this must lie over upon the objectian of a single Senator?

The Chief Justice-The Chief Justice, in conducting the business of the Court, adopts for his general guidance the rules of this Senate sitting in legislative session, as far as they are applicable. That is the

reason.

Mr. CONKLING called attention to the fact that the very rule under discussion provided for the case by the use of the words "nnless otherwise ordered."

The Chief Justice-It is competent for the Senator to appeal from the decision of the Chair.

Mr. CONKLING-Oh, no, sir; that is not my purpose.

Mr. JOHNSON said he did not desire to debate the question, and was proceeding to make a remark about the order, when he was cut short by the Chief Justice directing the counsel for the President to proceed.

* General Thomas Makes Corrections.

Mr. STANBERY said that General Thomas desired to make some corrections in his testimony, and General Thomas took the stand and said:-I wish to cor rect my testimony yesterday; I read a letter signed by Mr. Stanton and addressed to me on the 21st of February; I didn't receive the copy of that letter un til the next day after I had made the demand for the office; the Secretary came in and handed me the original; my impression is that I noted in that original the receipt; I then handed it to General Townsend to make the copy that I read here; I had it not until the 22d of February.

Q. Then when you saw the President on the afternoon of the 21st you had not read that letter from Mr. Stanton? A. I had not. The next correction I want to make is this: I said that the President told me to take possession of the office; he expressed it "take charge" of the office.

Q. Are you certain that was the expression? A. I

am positive; I was asked if I could give the date of my brevet commission; don't know whether it 18 important or not; I have it here; the date is 12th of March, 1865; Mr. Stanton gave it to me; he had more than once intended to give it to me, but on this occasion, when I returned from my duty, I said the time had arrived when I ought to have the commission, and he gave it to me. Here is another point: I stated when I was before the committee of the House managers, General Butler asked the clerk, I think it was, for the testimony of Dr. Burleigh; he said he had it not; that it was at home; I don't know whether he said or I said "It makes no difference;" he asked me a number of questions in reference to that; I assented to them all; I never heard that testimony read; I never heard Dr. Burleigh's testimony, nor do I recollect the questions, except that they were asked me, and I said Dr. Burleigh no doubt would recollect the conversation better than I.

His Cross-examination. : Cross-examined by Mr. BUTLER-Q. General Thomas, how many times did you answer yesterday that the President told you at that time to "take possession of the office?" A. Well, I have not read over my testimony; I have not read over any testimony, and I don't know how many times.

Q. Was that untrue each time? A. If I said so, it was; "take charge" were the words used.

Q. Have you any memorandum by which you can correct that expression? If so, produce it. A. I have no memorandum with me here; I don't know that I have any; I have not looked at one since I was on the stand; I can state it better to-day than I did yesterday, because I saw and read that evidence as reported; I gave it yesterday myself, and I know better what it was by reading it than when I testified to it; and I am sure the words were "take charge of," and the three times when 1 reported to him that Mr. Stanton would not go out or refused to go out, each time he said "take charge of the office;" my attention, at the time he said that, was not called to the difference between the words "take charge of the office" and "take possession of the office;" but I recollect it distinctly now, because I know that was the expression; I have always known that that was the expression; I made the mistake, because I think the words were put into my mouth.

Q. Just as Mr. Karsner did? (Laughter.) A. Yes, sir; 1 don't know that I am in the habit when anybody puts words into my mouth, of taking them; after I and Karsner were summoned here as witnesses, I went and quarreled with him; I had some words with him in the room here adjoining (indicating the door behind him); I called him a liar and a perjurer. (Laughter.) Liar and perjuer! Both; I did certainly call him a liar and a perjurer; I knew that he and I were both in the witness-room waiting to be called, and I knew he was here for that purpose; while he was there I undertook to talk with him about his testimony; I stated to him in two instances; I will give them to you.

Q. Answer my question. I asked you this question: whether you undertook to talk to him about the testimony? A. I don't know who introduced the conver sation; certainly not I, I don't think, for he was there for some time before I spoke to him.

Q. Did you speak first or he? A. That I don't recall.

Q. Did you tell him that he was a liar and perjurer at that time? A. I did tell him that he was a liar, and may have said he was a perjurer.

Q. Did you offer violence to him except in that way? A. I was then in full uniform, as I am nowmajor-general's uniform.

Q. Another question I want to ask you which was omitted: Do you still intend to take charge or possession of the office of Secretary of War? A. Firmly I do; I have never said to any person within a few days that we will have that fellow (meaning Mr. Stanton) out of it or sink the ship-never,

Q. Did you say to Mr. Johnson anything to that effect? A. Not that I have any recollection of.

Q. Do you know whether you did or not? A. What Mr. Johnson do you mean?

Q. I mean D. B. Johnson. A. There was a Mr. Johnson came to see me at my house in reference to another matter; we may have had some conversation about this.

Q. When was that that Mr. Johnson came to your house? A. I hardly recollect.

Q. About how long ago? A. I am trying to recollect now. He came to me about the business of

Q. Never mind what the business was; what was said? A. I want to call it to mind; I have a right to do that, I think.

Q. But not to state it? A. (After a pause) I can. hardly state, but recently; not very long ago. Q. Within two or three days? A. No, sir, before that; I think it is more than a week. Q. Let me give you a date, as far back as Friday week? A. I don't know about that.

Thomas in a Joking Mood.

.

Q. Was it longer than that? A. I did not charge my memory with it; it was a private conversation that we had; I was joking then. (Laughter.)

Q. Did you, joking or otherwise, use these words:"We will have Stanton out if we have to sink the ship?" A. I have no recollection of using any such expression.

R. Did you make use of any expression equivalent to it? A. I have no recollection of it.

Q. Have you such recollection of what you did say as to know what you did not say? A. I have not; I would rather Mr. Johnson would testify himself as to the conversation.

Q. Do you deny that you said so? A. Well, I won't deny it, because I do not know that I did. (Laugh ter.)

Q. You say you would rather he would testify; we will try and oblige you in that respect; but if you did say so, was it true, or was it merely brag? A. You may call it what you please.

Q. What do you call it? A. I do not call it brag. Q. What was it? A. It was a mere conversation whatever was said; I didn't mean to use any influence against Mr. Stanton to get him out of office.

Q. What did you mean by the expression that "yon would have him out if you sink the sink the ship. A. I say that I do not know that I used that expression, Q. We will show that by Mr. Johnson; but I am assuming that you did use it, and I ask you what meaning did you have?

Mr. EVARTS-You have no right to assume that Mr. Johnson will testify that; he has not said so yet. Witness-I cannot say what the conversation was; Mr. Johnson was there on official business connected with the dismissal of an officer from the army.

Mr. BUTLER Then you were joking on that subject? A. Certainly.

Q. Did you ever see Mr. Johnson before? A. I do not recollect, possibly I may have seen him.

Q. Have you ever seen him since? A. Not to my

knowlege.

Q. Here was a stranger who called upon you upon official business connected with the army, and did you go to joking in that way with him, a total stranger? A. I knew him as the lawyer employed by Colonel Belger to get him reinstated.

Q. Who was a stranger to you? A. I think he was. QAnd did you go to joking with a stranger on such a subject? A. Certainly; we had quite a familiar talk.

Q. And that is the only explanation you can give of the conversation? A. It is sufficient, I think.

Q. Sufficient or not, is it the only one you can give? A. It is the only one I do give.

Q. And is it, the only one you can give? A. Yes. Q. Did anybody talk to you about your testimony since you left the stand yesterday? A. I suppose have talked with a dozen persons; several persons met me and said they were very glad to hear my testimony; I was met to-day by several, who spoke to me jocularly about my taking an equal drink with the Secretary of War; I have talked with my own family about it.

Q. Has anybody talked with you about this point when you changed your testimony? A. I came here this morning and saw the managers, and told them. Mr. BUTLER-You don't mean the managers? Mr. EVARTS suggested that he meant the counsel for the President.

Witness-I meant the counsel for the President. Mr. BUTLER Did you talk with anybody before that on these points? A. Yes, with General Townsend this morning.

Q The Assistant Adjutant-General, but with nobody else? A. I have said no, and I am sure, (laugh ter); I did not receive a letter, a copy, or note from Mr. Stanton on the 21st of February; I said yesterday that he gave me the original; I have not seen that original since: the date was noted on that original; the one I read here was given on the 22d of February; it was handed to General Townsend, and he made a