Mr. PATTERSON. I think if you had good will and a desire to make the organization work you would not have any undue amount of trouble along that line. Those are problems, the details of which I acknowledge I have not considered, Senator.

Senator DONNELL. Has there been a tentative draft prepared of the proposed fundamental law or constitution of the Atlantic Union? Mr. PATTERSON. Not that I know of.

Senator DONNELL. Would you have not only a legislative department in the Atlantic Union but also an executive department?

Mr. PATTERSON. I just do not know about that. I have not given it thought, myself.

Senator DONNELL. And you do not know of anyone that has explored that point?

Mr. PATTERSON. It has been explored, possibly, but not by me.

Senator DONNELL. Would there be also a judicial department in the Atlantic Union?

Mr. PATTERSON. I suppose there would have to be.

Senator DONNELL. That would be somewhat in the nature of the Permanent Court of International Justice that came out of the First World War, and perhaps similar to the court under the existing United Nations Charter?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. It would decide matters that arose under the Charter.

Senator DONNELL. Would there be a power of enforcement of the decisions of that judicial department of the Atlantic Union as you envisage the plan?

Mr. PATTERSON. I suppose that would be up to the national governments themselves that were into it. I suppose they would be looked to to enforce it.

Senator DONNELL. If there were a decree issued by such a court, you would expect the country in favor of whom the decree was rendered to take adequate steps to enforce that decree against the others?

Mr. PATTERSON. Of course it would have to be enforced with the consent of the national government against whom the judgment was rendered, but I think you would have that support.

The CHAIRMAN. May I interrupt? I want to suggest that as I understand, the Secretary has already testified that the details of this organization have not been formed by anybody, that there is no written statement about the functions of each department and each branch, so that it seems to me that in view of that statement it is unnecessary to go into great detail about what somebody might think would be the details.

Mr. PATTERSON. I have no blueprint on it, Senator, myself.

Senator DONNELL. Well, Mr. Chairman, I want to say that inasmuch as the Secretary has stated very frankly that he regards the ratification of the North Atlantic Pact to be desirable in itself, but not only in itself but as a step toward the formation of an Atlantic Union, I think it is of some importance to get at least the outlines of what his plan is. I shall not go into it in great detail, and if I am exceeding the bounds of propriety in that respect I shall certainly observe the admonitions of the chairman.

MEMBERSHIP IN THE UNION

Mr. Secretary, you speak of the proposed Atlantic Union as one which would be a federation of democracies or free countries of the world. Would Portugal qualify under that definition?

Mr. PATTERSON. I believe so.

Senator DONNELL. I think you differ in that respect with Mr. Justice Roberts, as I recall his answer the other day when a similar question was asked of him. You think it would qualify?

Mr. PATTERSON. I do.

Senator DONNELL. You regard Portugal as a democracy?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, I do.

Senator DONNELL. Do you regard Spain as a democracy?

Mr. PATTERSON. I do not think Spain at the present time is.

THE TREATY AND THE UNITED NATIONS

Senator DONNELL. Mr. Secretary, Senator Connally asked a question which I am not able to quote with exactness, but I think I have the general gist in mind. When you were discussing whether or not the proposed North Atlantic Treaty is in harmony with the portions of the United Nations Charter he pointed out, not ipsissimis verbis but in substance, this provision in article 5, of the proposed North Atlantic Treaty:

The parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all. **本 Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.

I understood you to concur with his general view that inasmuch as there is this provision in article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty, the provision for forthwith action by the parties in the event of an armed attack against one of the signatories is in harmony with the United Nations Charter, since it is expressly provided in here that the measures taken under the North Atlantic Treaty shall be terminated when the Security Council, under the United Nations Charter, has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security. Did I correctly understand your view on that?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, sir. I believe the treaty fits right in under the United Nations.

Senator DONNELL. Now, suppose that Russia-and I pause to ask, is not Russia and its conduct the predominant, primary reason for the proposed North Atlantic Treaty?

Mr. PATTERSON. The conduct of those who are rulers of Russia; yes, sir.

PROCEDURE IN THE EVENT OF AN ATTACK

Senator DONNELL. Suppose Russia were to take action along the line of an attack against one of the signatory nations under the North Atlantic Treaty. We will say that Russia put in a tremendous force, a million or 2 million or 3 million soldiers in the field. It is pro

vided in the North Atlantic Treaty that the armed attack so made by Russia would be considered as an attack against each and all of the signatories, as I understand it. You so understand it too, do you not?

Mr. PATTERSON. I so understand it.

Senator DONNELL. And then it is provided that "Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security." Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. Mr. Secretary, you recall the fact that among the permanent members of the Security Council is the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, that is to say, Russia. That is correct, is it not? Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. And also that in matters of this type the Security Council, I take it, could act only by unanimous vote. That is correct, is it not?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. In the event of such a war by Russia against any one of these signatories, do you think it would be merely a temporary measure that would be taken under the North Atlantic Treaty? In other words, how long would it be before Russia, as a member of the Security Council, would vote in favor of approving the measures. taken against her?

Mr. PATTERSON. They never would, of course.

Senator DONNELL. So that in that particular instance, instead of the North Atlantic Treaty providing for a mere temporary expedient to be replaced by action of the Security Council, the temporary expedient would be the permanent one.

Mr. PATTERSON. In that case you put, yes. But still the language is good language, because you can have temporary measures that would last only a week, another a month, and another maybe years.

Senator DONNELL. I realize that that is entirely possible, and I have no criticism of the language of the treaty, but the substance of it, because of the fact that the potential enemy of these various nations is Russia, is this, that to my mind the practical effect is virtually nil; that is, the practical effect of this last sentence in article 5, in any Senator DONNELL. I realize that that is entirely possible, and I think you would agree with that, would you not?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, I would.

Senator DONNELL. I want to take this opportunity to express first my great appreciation of your frankness. It has been very characteristic of you. As you know, we have been friends for some years. We met in my own home State under very interesting surroundings, as you remember.

Mr. PATTERSON. When you were Governor.

Senator DONNELL. I want to ask you this: In addition to being Secretary of War and having served upon the United States circuit court of appeals, you are today the president of the Association of the Bar of the City of New York, are you not?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. And a committee of that organization has been appointed of which Mr. Adolph Berle is the chairman, which is expected to report tonight on the subject of the North Atlantic Treaty. That is correct, is it not?

Mr. PATTERSON. Mr. Berle is chairman of the committee of the Association of the Bar on International Law. I think he is due to make a report tonight. I expect to hear it in a few hours.

Senator DONNELL. I understood, and as you say, you are now the president of the organization?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, sir. I do not know what his report is going to be.

Senator DONNELL. In substance, portions of it were set out yesterday in the New York Times, Mr. Secretary.

I am not going to infringe on the propriety of your modesty to ask you as to the prospects of reelection, which I am not in any sense bringing up in satire or criticism but in compliment, in fact. The paper does indicate that you will be reelected at that meeting. Mr. PATTERSON. That is very good news.

Senator DONNELL. It is perfectly clear that that is not in any sense that I am using any sarcasm about you, but I know that the committee was appointed by yourself and you are president of it, and Mr. Berle is to present the report.

Mr. PATTERSON. The committee of which Mr. Berle is the chairman was appointed a year ago. It is not a special committee for this proj

ect.

Senator DONNELL. As I understand, it is a permanent committee. Mr. PATTERSON. It is a committee that has been in existence for many years, and Mr. Berle became chairman of it by my appointment just a year ago.

Senator DONNELL. The term of this North Atlantic Treaty is how long?

Mr. PATTERSON. Twenty years.

PROVISIONS FOR WITHDRAWAL OR EXPULSION

Senator DONNELL. Is there any provision in it by which any nation may either itself voluntarily withdraw or be involuntarily expelled from the community forming the treaty?

Mr. PATTERSON. Not that I know of.

Senator DONNELL. So it is a 20-year obligation?

Mr. PATTERSON. A 20-year engagement.

Senator DONNELL. There is a provision regarding a review of the treaty at the end of 10 years, but that does not constitute any provision for withdrawal or expulsion.

Mr. PATTERSON. I would say not.

Senator DONNELL. Mr. Secretary, do you know Prof. Edwin Borchard, of Yale University?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Senator DONNELL. You refer in your statement in this language: "Moscow, it will bear repeating, pays strict attention to physical power." Am I correct in inferring from that statement that Russia would be deterred much more effectively by a powerful, or to adopt the language of the President of the United States, "an overwhelming" force than it would be by a mere signature of a pact, than by a mere small display of force? Am I correct in that?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, sir.

NEED FOR AMERICAN TROOPS IN EUROPE

Senator DONNELL. Mr. Secretary, have you given attention to the question as to whether or not Europe that is to say the countries signatory to this pact in Europe-could successfully slow up and retard the coming in of Russian troops and the ocerrunning of that country without the assistance of United States troops joining with European troops?

Mr. PATTERSON. I believe that in the event of a march to the West by Russia there are elements of military strength in the countries of Europe still present.

Senator DONNELL. Do you regard that those elements of strength which are still present are sufficient to hold back Russia and prevent her from overruning Europe and leaving Europe subject to the slow process of reliberation as took place in the war against Germany, the Second World War?

Mr. PATTERSON. I do not think anybody could say. You mean without the help of the United States?

Senator DONNELL. Yes.

Mr. PATTERSON. I do not think anybody could say. That would be a very doubtful matter, in my opinion.

MILITARY IMPLEMENTATION OF TREATY

Senator DONNELL. You say in your statement:

In the presence of that combined strength

and that combined strength is the strength under this North Atlantic Treaty, I take it

in the resources it takes to wage war the autocrats in the Kremlin will see no prospect of victory and will not give their soldiers the word to march.

I take it in view of that statement and others which you have made that you do regard the military implementation of that treaty as a very substanial and material and important element in the effectiveness of the treaty, is that right?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. Have you given consideration to how much of actual money or the equivalent of money would be required to properly implement this treaty, the money to which I refer being that to be put up by the United States in the next 4 or 5 years?

Mr. PATTERSON. Some consideration, but not detailed study. I think the amount mentioned and requested by the State Department is right. Senator DONNELL. That is the $1,130,000,000?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. And that is, of course, for the first year?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. You have not given consideration, Mr. Secretary, or have you, to the probabilities of what will be required for the second, third, and fourth years?

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Secretary, I regret it extremely, but I am going to have to leave. I did not anticipate this would take up so much time, and Senator McMahon will conclude the hearing. I apolize. We have some representatives of the British dominions over at the