Mr. RIEHIMAN. You have got to train people, and you have got to take people from the Corps of Engineers and the Bureau of Yards and Docks and train them in the technique of marking areas for the protection of our people. We have been at this business for several years, and we have had study after study in the past by OCDM. But we cannot use some of the material that they have put together, and we haven't people now available to do some of this work. I am just a bit alarmed about it and worried as to what we are going to have in the future.

We were just going to have another operation and another program of planning without action.

Mr. YARMOLINSKY. Sir, we propose to use those surveyors who are available. But the number of surveys that have been conducted is very small compared to the number of surveys we need in order to do this job in a hurry, which is the way we plan to do it. Our major bottleneck is people whom we do not have who can give us this kind of skill in a great hurry. We have to give them that skill because they don't have it now.

NEED FOR ACTION NOW

Mr. RIEHLMAN. I would like to make just one more statement.

I would like to suggest that you take the people who now have the skills, even though they be a few, and put them to work in constructive work in marking and the preparation of buildings, and shelters in the areas where it can be done, and that you start in, in cities where we will find the greatest amount of damage that could be done should they be hit. I am talking about critical areas such as Detroit, New York, and other big cities, which would probably be target areas. Mr. YARMOLINSKY. That is our plan, sir.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. And I think the time has arrived when the committee and I, for one, are going to see some action and not just discussion.

Mr. ROBACK. Will you bear with a historical note here?

The first Administrator of the FCDA, Governor Millard Caldwell, of Florida, in his first appearance before the House Appropriations Committee, on March 16, 1951, when he was asked about the possibility of building large deep community shelters said-I will only quote him a little bit:

New emphasis must be put on making the most of whatever we have wherever we have it, identifying those places which can be made fairly safe such as the basements of reinforced concrete buildings, and then identifying those places which can be made fairly safe by shoring up. They are available now. We cannot wait for the deep-shelter program.

Now, this is a matter of methodology. Let's first find out what we have got. The only trouble with this is, we can't keep saying that for too many years, because we will never get anything else.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. Let me just say this one other word, Mr. Counsel. Year after year the OCDM and the civil defense people have come before the Congress asking for assistance and help in presenting programs. And we have had program after program. And every year the funds requested have been cut down, and even this year. Why? Because there has been no action. And I want to assure you that this will happen, just as sure as you and I are in this committee room

this morning if there isn't some action forthcoming from this program that is being outlined here today.

Congress certainly isn't willing to appropriate funds for just the benefit of people going through certain surveys and actions without bringing into being some results.

Mr. YARMOLINSKY. Sir, this is a situation that the Secretary of Defense, I am sure, would not tolerate for 1 minute more than one Member of Congress.

TRAINING COURSES BEGUN

Mr. CANNELL. It might give you some confidence to know that the first training course using those who know how to do this is beginning in less than a week. The program is starting even though the funds as yet have not been appropriated. We are getting as much leadtime on it as possible. Naturally if you don't give us the gas to continue driving it will stop.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. We will have to see some action, I am sure, before you get the gas. We have given the program a lot of gas during the past years, and it hasn't been used, as far as I am concerned, very constructively. And I am not sure it is going to be at the present time until I see more than you have presented to us at the moment. Mrs. GRIFFITHS. Mr. Chairman, I would like to point out, as I have thought from the beginning, that if you are planning on using the Corps of Engineers, that is the most understaffed, overworked Department of the entire Army. It took me 3 years to get 5 miles of the River Rouge surveyed. So I think you are going to have quite a difficult time with it.

USE OF AMERICAN MACHINE & FOUNDRY CO. MANUAL

I would like to ask you this: In response to a question some years ago it was pointed out that the mechanics research department of American Machine & Foundry Co. has recently completed a survey of the existing shelters, in cities under a contract to the Federal Civil Defense Administration. More correctly, they have written a guide manual to be used by the cities in evaluating their existing shelter. What became of it? Where is it now?

Mr. RIEHLMAN. Would you yield, Mrs. Griffiths?
Mrs. GRIFFITHIS. Surely.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. This is the point I am trying to make. What has happened, and why are we overlooking the information and these studies that are on record at the present time?

Mr. ROBACK. Mr. Riehlman, I have several of these guides here, if I can find them in my papers.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. I certainly want to support your statement as far as the Corps of Engineers is concerned. When they anticipate using some members of the Corps of Engineers to do some studies or the marking of the shelters, it will be a long time before you get them. Mrs. GRIFFITHS. What became of this particular survey?

Mr. CANNELL. In the face of this it sounds somewhat inconsistent that they have completed a survey and then planned a manual for others to do the survey. I am not familiar with any data from those surveys.

Mr. ROBACK. Will you respond to that, Mr. Brewer?

Mr. BREWER. I am not acquainted with the facts in the case.

Mr. ROBACK. Do you have anybody in your organization who is? Mr. BREWER. We will be glad to look into this matter and file a definite answer on that.

Mr. ROBACK. Mr. Devaney?

Mr. DEVANEY. I remember that the American Machine & Foundry prepared a manual.

Mr. ROBACK. I might identify it for you [holding up a document]. Mr. DEVANEY. It was written and used as a part of the survival projects.

PLAN OF TRAINING COURSES FOR SURVEY PERSONNEL

Mr. ROBACK. You see, there is a great deal of technical information floating around. And the training course probably could take a lot less than 6 months, it might take maybe 6 weeks or even 3 weeks.

Mr. YARMOLINSKY. Mr. Roback, the training course is not scheduled to take 6 months. I can give you the precise times here.

Mr. CANNELL. It is about a 4-week course. It is just that you are starting from a small base of trained professionals, and the Nation is a very large one, so that you have to train quite a few people. So this means a series of several courses. The first sequence is instructors to train instructors to train instructors, etc. At that point, you train people to do the job. So it has to go through several cycles to build a base upon which to do the work.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. Could I ask one question, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. HOLIFIELD. Mr. Riehlman.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. Have you had conferences with the Corps of Engineers and the Bureau of Yards and Docks to see how many people they are going to have available to train those that are going to train the other people that will train the other group?

Mr. CANNELL. Yes. And the first course is starting the 7th of August.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. How many people are going to be made available to you?

Mr. CANNELL. They will have two people from each of their districts or divisions. Around 120 people will attend the first course.. And that is about as large as you can handle in one course.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. Will that be 120 people from the Bureau of Yards and Docks and the Corps of Engineers?

Mr. CANNELL. A total of 120 people will be made up from that base. Mr. YARMOLINSKY. We are relying primarily on the Corps of Engineers district officers except where the Bureau of Yards and Docks officers are instructors.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. I think the committee would be glad to know, after this conference has been held, how many people in the Corps of Engineers and the Bureau of Yards and Docks are going to be made available for this work.

Mr. YARMOLINSKY. We will be glad to furnish the committee with a detailed plan for the program.

Mrs. GRIFFITHS. If you are going to contract any of this work out, put that in, too.

Mr. YARMOLINSKY. We plan to contract with architects, and engineers to do the actual survey, and we will include those plans in the submission.

(The following information subsequently was received :)

What is the number of people from the Corps of Engineers and the Bureau of Yards and Docks to be made available for civil defense training, and what are the plans for contracting our survey work?

In round numbers, the personnel from the Corps of Engineers and the Bureau of Yards and Docks to be associated with the civil defense training program on a full-time basis is approximately 100. These persons would be responsible for providing training for approximately 1,000 supervisory personnel of architectengineer firms. They, in turn would be responsible for providing the requisite training for the shelter survey field engineers, who would probably number approximately 10,000.

Currently, the plan for survey and marking shelters contemplates the award of multiple contracts to qualified architect-engineer firms throughout the United States. These contracts would be managed by existing district offices of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and the local public works offices of the U.S. Navy Bureau of Yards and Docks. These 38 Army and 12 Navy district offices are distributed throughout the United States. The field office (Army or Navy) for each State would coordinate the administration of all contracts for surveys within that State. The contract form would be a standard document used by both the Army and the Navy. It would require a potential contractor to demonstrate that his key people are professional engineers, registered to practice in their particular field, and that members of the survey teams are technically qualified to collect and evaluate survey data.

USE OF EXISTING MANUALS

Mrs. GRIFFITHS. Here are some of the things that have already been done. There is a shelter guide manual [indicating] "Fallout Shelter Survey, Guide for Architects and Engineers." Here is another: "Fallout Shelter Survey, Guide for Executives." So that you have quite a few surveys already made.

Mr. CANNELL. That is the instructions on how to do it, and is the reason that we can now have the training course. It is sort of like having a book on how to design a bridge, but until you have communicated this to a person who is actually going to do it, that is, the rules that are set forth in the book, he can't execute the job.

Mr. YARMOLINSKY. Mrs. Griffiths, this is textbook material for use in the courses which are necessary to get the people trained.

Mr. CANNELL. It is sort of like Von Braun has been talking of going to the moon for 10 years, he has made steps toward it every year. He isn't there yet.

There are steps toward this survey every year they have been working. Maybe they haven't been fast enough, but they are ready to execute it now. The material is available to do the execution.

Mrs. GRIFFITHS. At the present rate Von Braun will reach the moon first.

UNDERGROUND STRUCTURES

Mr. ROBACK. Mr. Yarmolinsky, can you advise the committee why this program which is designed to get shelter spaces most quickly, in the least costly way, is limited to structures? Why have you not considered all the other potentials, such as subways, tunnels, mines? Mr. VARMOLINSKY. It is not limited to structures, Mr. Roback. Mr POBACK. Do you have a program for mine marking?

Mr. YARMOLINSKY. We would propose to mark such underground spaces, mines, and caves, or what not, as would be within reasonable reach.

Mr. ROBACK. Do you have a program for marking the storm sewers?

Mr. YARMOLINSKY. We have in mind the storm sewers, underground passages, the shuttle subway

Mr. ROBACK. Are you now stating to this committee that this is a part of the identification program that you have asked $93 million for?

Mr. YARMOLINSKY. Yes.

Mr. BREWER. Mr. Roback, one of our shelter surveys which is now in progress in the State of Missouri, I believe, includes the survey of existing cave and mine space.

Mr. ROBACK. I am asking a specific question, Mr. Brewer, and that is, in regard to this identification program which has been explained to this committee, does it include shelter potentials other than structures?

And the answer has been "Yes," and unless it is incorrect and you want to modify it in a subsequent statement, we will take it as it stands.

RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT ON SHELTER CONSTRUCTION

Why does the program not include prototype group shelters and why aren't you studying group shelters? You may have to build

some.

Mr. YARMOLINSKY. We expect to study prototype group structures as well as prototype individual shelters in the research and development program for which we are asking $15 million.

Mr. ROBACK. You feel that this is still an R. & D. program?
Mr. YARMOLINSKY. We feel that it is, sir.

Mr. ROBACK. As far as the mix of structures goes, the different kinds, and their location? Is this part of the R. & D. program? And do you still have to find out what are good building materials that won't cost much? Are those the kinds of problems you are interested in?

Mr. YARMOLINSKY. I don't think we have yet arrived at a per capita cost figure for constructed shelters which is at anything like the limit of what research and development-and I would emphasize "development”—can produce. The figures that we have seen in the course of our necessarily very brief explorations have covered such a wide range per capita that we feel that there is room for an intensive R. & D. effort.

Mr. ROBACK. And this R. & D. effort will tell you about new shelter problems and possibilities?

Mr. YARMOLINSKY. I should say that, as a complement of this R. & D. effort, the survey itself, we feel, is essential in indicating what the difference is between the available shelter of existing buildings and spaces and the need for shelter in terms of population concentrations and target probabilities.