Senator MURDOCK. Mr. Chairman, we also have present this morning Mr. Brownell, of the American Smelting & Refining Co., which company, I think, handles the largest proportion of silver, both foreign and domestic, of any company in the United States. Mr. Brownell has very kindly agreed to take a few minutes of the committee's time this moraing to give us the silver situation as it exists in the United States today. I have talked to him and am satisfied he has information on the supply of foreign and domestic silver that this committee would be very much interested in, and I am hopeful that before the hearing closes we may give him a few minutes of the committee's time.

Senator MALONEY. I should like to say in that connection that another gentleman has spoken to me about a desire to be heard. I understand that he came down here at the invitation, or at least the suggestion, of Senator Taft, but Senator Taft is unavoidably absent from the meeting this morning.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you mean Mr. Spahr?

Senator MALONEY. I did not talk with Mr. Spahr but to a gentleman who represents Mr. Spahr.

The CHAIRMAN. I think if we should hear these gentlemen it might open up a new subject.

Senator MALONEY. Doubtless it would open up an entirely new subject, but if you hear Mr. Brownell I do not see how you could deny Mr. Spahr a hearing. I do not know that the statement of either of these gentlemen would be exactly directed to this bill.

Senator MURDOCK. Although the statement I made the other day was rather ridiculed by one of my colleagues, yet I wish now to say that I think there is no legislation today pending before this Congress that is more far-reaching than this bill. I say that after having lived almost with the silver question for 10 years in the Congress. I do not want to deny any person the right to testify in favor of the bill, but I do think the bill is of such importance that we should not deny the right to speak on it by anybody who may have information that should be before the committee.

Senator MALONEY. I hope the Senator from Utah does not think I intended to offer any such objection.

Senator MURDOCK. No; I did not so consider what you said, but am merely stating my position.

Representative WHITE. Mr. Chairman, I want to say that I am a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the House of Representatives and have to leave Washington this evening. I should like the opportunity during this hearing to say a few words and to present a few facts.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you think that will be necessary after Senator McCarran finishes his statement?

Representative WHITE. Well, I would wish the opportunity to back him up.

Senator MCCARRAN. I think it would be well, and I am entirely agreeable to having Mr. Brownell, Congressman White, and others heard ahead of me. I would be very glad to follow up and conclude the matter before the committee. I think time might be conserved in that way. I am entirely content that the hearing should be handled in whatever way may best suit the convenience of the chairman and other members of the committee. But I do want the chairman to

understand fully my sincere appreciation for his attitude and the attitude of other members of the committee in granting this deferment so that I could return from hearings I was conducting in the West and be present here today. I am deeply appreciative of the chairman's graciousness. But I gladly defer to Mr. Brownell and the other gentlemen who have been mentioned, especially the Congressman who, I understand, must leave; and I think, perhaps, the whole matter could be rounded out well by following a program of having them appear ahead of me and allow me to wind it up.

The CHAIRMAN. We only adjourned the hearing to give you an opportunity to be heard, Senator McCarran; but you are bringing in all of your friends.

Senator MALONEY. I think that is a fact, Mr. Chairman, and believe that Senator McCarran should go ahead now.

Senator MCCARRAN. I take it, that you gentlemen of the committee desire to be fully enlightened, and must say that no one man can fully enlighten you on this wide subject. This is a subject that is controversial in the extreme. It has been controversial for ages. It will probably remain controversial, I am sorry to say, but it is a subject that should have the greatest thought and consideration of this committee. However, I am entirely at your disposal.

The CHAIRMAN. We had better hear from you first, briefly I hope. Senator MCCARRAN. I hope that remark does not imply that I am ever other than brief.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, that might bring up another controversy. You may proceed, Senator McCarran.

STATEMENT OF HON. PAT MCCARRAN, SENIOR SENATOR FROM

NEVADA

Senator MCCARRAN. Mr. Chairman, if it is your desire that I now be heard I wish to again express my gratitude for the opportunity to come before this committee. I hope that the immature and ill-advised statements that have appeared in the preferential press of America will not impress itself upon this committee. When I say "immature and ill-advised" I am using the mildest terms that could possibly be applied to the publications that have appeared recently in magazine articles and press reports in this country. Those articles branded 12 members of the Senate of the United States as traitors to America.

The CHAIRMAN. I am sure that our committee members do not pay any attention to that sort of thing.

Senator MCCARRAN. You cannot do otherwise than pay attention to things that you read. I know the American public pays attention because the Secret Service Department of the Government transmitted to me a letter enclosing a photostatic copy of a letter which was sent to the President of the United States, in which letter an ill-advised citizen of the United States, having read those articles, stated that if certain events occurred, he would come to Washington and kill me.

The CHAIRMAN. And do what?

Senator MCCARRAN. And kill me. You cannot be other than cognizant of these published statements when the editor of the Saturday Evening Post said that someone should go into the meeting

of the 12 Senators and use a lead pipe on them. I make mention of that fact because the publication of such articles does impress the public, and must of necessity impress this committee.

Mr. Chairman, this is not a fictitious nor a foolish subject. This subject deals with the life of this Nation, because if this Nation is to succeed as a democratic form of government it must succeed by dint of its strength from the standpoint of its manpower, momentarily militarily, but in addition from the standpoint of its financial strength in the years to come.

Throughout the ages the question of the value of silver as money has had its place, and it has always been a most important subject. Solomon dealt with it very early when considering the two great precious metals that were then recognized. He said, "Silver comes in ledges, but gold is where you find it." The Cornish miner, using Solomon's expression, if I may be facetious for just a moment, said, "Solomon said gold is where you find it, but where it be there I be not."

It was determined by France and Germany before the colonization of America, and it had been determined by the scientists and economists of the world even before the discovery of America, that there is a ratio fixed by nature, which ratio indicates the production of silver from the then discovered and the since discovered min s of the world in ratio with gold.

Please understand, Mr. Chairman, that there have been but two precious metals in the world so far as monetary consideration. is concerned. They are gold and silver. They have fought their joint battles and their respective battles in world finance since time immemorial, and that fight will probably continue for many years to

come.

Gold has always been the money of the hoarder. Gold has always been the money of the powers. Silver from time immemorial has been the money of the poor. It has been the money of the masses. And may I bring ancient history down to the modern day by calling your attention to the fact that today the peoples of the conquered as well as of the unconquered countries of the old world still are calling for silver. And the call is greater than it has ever been in all recorded history of civilization. Why? Because the peoples' of the conquered countries and the peoples of the unconquered countries as well, have had their experience.

The day was, 22 years ago, when it took a million marks to buy a loaf of bread. But a piece of silver as large as your thumbnail would do the same thing. So today in France, in Turkey, in Iran, in Iraq, in India, in China, in Germany, in France, and indeed in Great Britain, the masses of the people are calling for silver, so much so that the British Government, according to a statement made by the Treasury before our Silver Committee, is asking us for 21⁄2 million ounces of silver per month.

It is not entirely because silver has taken another place in the world. It is because the masses of the people of those countries are calling for silver, and they are thus calling for silver because since time immemorial silver has always been the money of the poor. And the poor know what it is to be hungry; and the poor are looking forward in this world today, not only in the old countries but in America as well, yes, the masses of the people are looking forward

to a day and an hour when hunger may present itself in its most stern form. And looking forward to that hour they are asking for the thing that will insure their getting a loaf of bread.

But silver has taken another place in the history of civilization. Ratios do not play a large part in that new place that silver has taken. Ratios have played a part in the position of silver in relation to gold in the history of the past. When this country was settled France and Germany had determined, and indeed England had determined, from a long study of the subject that the ratio of the production of silver to gold in the world was about 15 ounces of silver to 1 ounce of gold.

However, when we set up our Government on this continent, Hamilton determined that the ratio of 15 ounces of silver to 1 ounce of gold was the correct ratio of the two precious metals. In other words, we as a Nation declared that we would coin money of silver in our mints free of charge, which expression gave rise to "free and unlimited coinage of silver" later on. We determined that we would put the eagle on a silver dollar, and that that would be a medium of exchange, at the ratio of 15 to 1. That is, that 15 ounces of silver would have the value of 1 ounce of gold.

The reason for that was that that was nature's way of producing, and so we would follow what we believed to be nature. France had followed what the French scientists and economists believed to be the natural production, 151⁄2 to 1. Germany had done likewise, and Great Britain had followed.

Immediately upon our setting up the established policy of 15 to 1 there was a flood of silver flowing toward our country. In 1834 the ratio of silver to gold was changed to 16 to 1. Mr. Chairman, it was silver that settled America. No money in the world settled America as silver settled America. No money in the world has done as much for the masses of the people of America and for the Government of America as has silver.

May I be just a little bit personal and say that I represent the State of which President Lincoln made the expression-and that expression was made because the Union was then in the throes of its greatest trial-and what Mr. Lincoln said was this:

Pass this vote. Admit this State or raise another million men, and God knows how much money.

The reason for that statement was that the Comstock lode had come into existence. We put $800,000,000 into the lap of the Nation from one mining camp, and we saved the Nation. Lincoln said so, and I will call upon no greater or higher authority.

I make mention of that, incidentally, because it supports my statement to you, Mr. Chairman, that silver down the ages has played the greatest part of any money that man ever created. I make that statement because we are now in a battle to save that situation, and this committee has before it something that will not be terminated today or tomorrow but must have the very prudent, the very careful, the most thoughtful consideration of this committee. Nothing coming before this committee in years will have a more significant place than the question you have before you today, because if this bill now pending, to which you have made reference and to which I address myself, were to become a law in its present form you would debase and destroy silver as a monetary element in America. I propose to deal with that quite at length.

I told you just a moment ago that there was a new agency that had arisen in the world that was calling upon silver. It is an industrial agency. Industry has found, science has found, there is no more efficient conductor of electricity in the world than silver, transcending in that particular field copper. There are many, many new industrial uses to which silver has been applied, brought about by reason of the work of scientists, by reason of industrial research, by reason of the hour that is upon us in which war presents itself and makes great demands.

The charge has been made and I now address myself to that charge that those of us who oppose this bill are opposed to the use of silver for war purposes. Never was there a greater lie printed. Never was there a more direct misstatement of fact presented to a reading public.

Senator MALONEY. Senator McCarran, who made such a statement? I missed that one.

Senator MCCARRAN. Then you have not read the Saturday Evening Post or the Reader's Digest.

Senator MALONEY. Yes; I have read both of them, but do not recall the charge that you were opposed to the use of silver for war purposes.

Senator MCCARRAN. Then you have not read the articles.

Senator MALONEY. I have and I am sorry to say I missed that statement.

Senator MCCARRAN. Then I will back it up with the editorial in the Saturday Evening Post, in which it was said that someone should walk into a meeting of the silver Senators and use a lead pipe on them.

Senator MALONEY. I did not read that editorial.

Senator MCCARRAN. I am sorry, although it would not have been any more enlightening, perhaps, than the misstatements. Perhaps you have not missed anything if you failed to see the other statements because they were all of a similar misleading nature. But I do not want to get off the track.

Senator MALONEY. I shall try not to interrupt you again. I simply wanted to clear up the situation in my own mind.

Senator MCCARRAN. Oh, that is all right. I do not object to interruptions; in fact, I always appreciate them. But I do not want to get too far off the track. If you did not read these statements and did not get the significance of them allow me to suggest that you should see some of the mail that is coming to the 12 Senators. Some of it threatened our lives because, as the writers say, we are refusing to permit the use of silver in the war effort.

Senator MALONEY. I am sure you have no such thought in mind, and that was the reason I asked who had made the charge.

Senator MCCARRAN. Well, the charge was made, and it was so strong that it encouraged the reading public to write letters threatening us. I only make mention of this, Mr. Chairman, so as to show you the situation, and you do me a great kindness to be so patient when I get off my subject now and then. To illustrate the situation, if I may

Senator MALONEY (interposing). Senator McCarran, may I ask you another question?

Senator MCCARRAN. Oh, that is all right.