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of the Cradle of Forestry had 9,250,000 visitors, an increase of 15.4 percent over the preceding year. The Pisgah and the Nantahala National Forests last year had approximately 400,000 visitors. I present these figures to show that the Cradle of Forestry will be visited by citizens from all over the Nation.

I see this Cradle of Forestry as a unique national forest conservation shrine, visited by millions of citizens each year and constituting a worthwhile investment, educationally and conservationwise.

The bill (1) gives national recognition to the Cradle of Forestry; (2) it designates the boundary lines and sets aside an area consisting of 6,800 acres; and (3) it also authorizes the Secretary to accept donations of money and other gifts in furthering the purposes of this act.

The Secretary may expect to receive many items of historical significance and other donations which will help develop and tell the story of American forestry conservation. As I stated, the reproduction of the original schoolhouse was a donation by the school alumni. Lumber interests in the Nation are expected to donate antique tools which help tell the history of American forestry. I have received letters supporting this bill from conservation-minded citizens from all sections of America.

The bill does not cost the Government any money. In fact, it aids the development of this unique historical attraction by making possible the receipt of private funds and gifts.

I point out again that the Cradle of Forestry is already in operation. Part of the construction needed has already been built. Admission fees are charged. The bill carries no specific spending authorization. I thank you. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. Mr. Jones?

Mr. JONES of Missouri. Mr. Taylor, I understood Mr. McGuire a moment ago to mention something about $11 million.

Mr. TAYLOR. He could explain more fully what he had in mind than I can. My understanding is that the entire project will have a cost tag of perhaps that amount. I did not really realize that it was that much. Part has already been expended. Part of the buildings have already been constructed.

The purpose of this bill is to encourage private donations and gifts in aiding and developing the project, so that much of this money can come from private donations, rather than from appropriations.

Mr. JONES of Missouri. Well, now, I followed the testimony of Mr. McGuire, and he mentioned $11 million. He said that that came out of the forestry funds, and this led me to believe that we were going to have to increase the appropriations for the Forest Service. I have no objection to creating and giving authority for these things when people come in and say that the public is going to contribute. I would like to make it possible and to give them thanks for contributing, but in this time, when we are talking about trying to balance the budget and we are talking about increasing taxes, I am just not going to vote for any more programs which are going to require more tax money. I sympathize with what is trying to be done. I think it is very worthwhile. These people who want to contribute, I think they can contribute now if they want to do so, but this $11 million is just a small thing -everybody says that is just $11 million, and that is not going to contribute much to the $146 billion budget. We have to make a stop. I do


not think this is an appropriate time to add another obligation which is going to require additional tax money.

I would like to have your comment on that.

Mr. TAYLOR. I might add that there is a Job Corps camp that will do much of the work. The Job Corps camp is already there.

Mr. JONES of Missouri. That is tax money, too.
Mr. TAYLOR. That will do much of the work.

Mr. Jones of Missouri. I heard over the television last night where we are taking some of these hard-core unemployed boys who have not had a job and we are going to set them up and pay them $1.60 an hour to go to school which, to me, is one of the craziest things I have heard about in a long time. And I am going to ask the people who are handling programs like that some questions.

We have to take a look at these dollars, because we are spending more dollars all of the time for things that can be postponed. I want to postpone them just a little longer, until we can make some progress here with a balanced budget.

I am sorry that this happens to be a project of yours. I like all of these things, but if the people want to pay for them there is nothing now to keep them from making contributions to the Forest Service.

Mr. TAYLOR. I agree fully with that which has been said in regard to the need for economy at the present time, and I would like to point out again that this is a bill that is designed for the purpose of encouraging private donations to do a job which Forest Service is already doing. The Cradle of Forestry is already established. Big signs are up telling where it is. Buildings are already erected. The schoolhouse reproduction has already been donated and placed there. The visitors center is already there, and they have a film there to tell the story to the visitors who come there.

The purpose of this is to encourage private donations to aid in the furtherance of the program. It does go a step farther and defines the boundary lines of it. Passing this legislation does not cost any money. The Forest Service already has the power to develop the Cradle. It has committed itself to developing it, and it is in the process of developing it, and this is to help get private donations of materials and money to aid it and it eases the process by which these donations can be accepted. At present, the Forest Service has to enter into a special written contract with any person who makes any kind of a donation. This would eliminate that need.

Mr. JONES of Missouri. If they have the authority to do it, I do not see any reason why not. In other words, all of this testimony this morning has led me to believe that they already have the authority, and we are now just giving our OK to it, and this is encouraging the spending of more money and to ask for increased appropriations later. I have looked at all of these bills for authorization very carefully, because I do not want to be on record as voting for anything which is authorizing any increase in authorization of tax money until we get in a little better shape financially. That is my point.

Mr. TAYLOR. This bill, if I could answer the gentleman, is not an authorization for any spending. At the present time, any individual who wishes to donate money to the Secretary of Agriculture for this project has to enter into a written cooperative agreement specifying just how the money will be handled.



Mr. Jones of Missouri. Is there any difficulty getting that done now?

Mr. TAYLOR. It is cumbersome; it is difficult, and the present purpose of this is to encourage private donations. We have had expressions of interest from many, many people who are interested in forestry and are interested in this conservation project who will make donations of material. The schoolhouse has already been donated and erected and is in operation. And there are others who are interested in making donations. This is to prevent the Federal Government from having to do the entire project at the taxpayers' expense.

Mr. Jones of Missouri. Would you have any objection to writing into this bill that it has no intention of incurring any further Federal expenditures, and it is for the purpose of encouraging private donations? Mr. TAYLOR. I think it


that. Mr. Jones of Missouri. You do not spell it out. It gives our OK to the spending of more money, and they will be in here asking for more money; that is, the Forest Service, to develop this, and that is what makes these bureaucracies grow around here, a little here and a little there, and here we go!

Mr. Taylor. It gives no spending authority to the Forest Service. Mr. Jones of Missouri. They already have it?

Mr. TAYLOR. That is right, and this just encouraging private donations to aid, so that they will not have to spend the taxpayers' money.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. May.

Mrs. May. I do not want to bela bor the point, but could you explain for the record, either one of you, just what this bill does as far as the ability of the Department to accept private donations? I am not sure that I understand that.

Mr. TAYLOR. Perhaps the Forest Service representative would be the best one to answer that.

Mrs. May. Perhaps; yes, Mr. McGuire could.

Mr. McGUIRE. This bill would make it easier for the Secretary of Agriculture to accept small donations He has authority now to enter into cooperative agreements with private individuals and organizations, but he does not have the authority to easily accept a large number of small donations. For example, someone wants to donate $25, it might wind up costing the Government $30 to receive the money. This is because of the nature of the authority under which we have been operating. The authority to cooperate involves drawing up a cooperative agreement with each individual. This bill would simplify the paperwork connected with such transactions.

Mrs. May. In other words, if I wanted to give $25, this bill conceivably would enable the Forest Service to do it without paperwork. Is there a form that must be jointly filled out?

Mr. McGuire. We would have to enter into an agreement at this time saying what the money is for, and that we desire to cooperate in doing something. That is the present procedure. This bill would simplify that, so that it would simply be a matter of accepting a check or the money and depositing it without any formal agreement.

Mrs. MAY. Are these agreement forms available at the site of this place?

How is it done now? Say that I want to give $50. I go to sign this form-or how do I do this?

Mr. McGUIRE. At the present time, the moneys that have been donated have come to us through the alumni association of this old Forestry School, but we expect there are many other individuals who will go and visit the area who might prefer to send a donation to the Secretary of Agriculture which he could then accept.

Mrs. MAY. Under the present circumstances, if I send you a check, you would have to return a form in the mails to me and I would have to sign that!

Mr. McGUIRE. That is correct.
Mrs. May. What would these forms say?

Mr. McGUIRE. This would say, roughly, that you and the Secretary of Agriculture, being interested in developing this area, agree to cooperate. You would agree to put your money in, and he would agree to do something with it. Both of you would sign the agreement and it would become a part of the records. This would be done under the Secretary's authority to cooperate.

Mrs. May. And if this bill were passed, all that would be necessary would be that I would send a check directly to the Secretary of Agriculture with a letter saying that I wanted to deposit it in a special fund?

Mr. McGUIRE. He would say “Thank you," and that is the end of it.

Mrs. May. Thank you.
That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. TAYLOR, Could I add one additional statement there on that point?


Mr. TAYLOR. Mr. Hanlon, who is the director of the North Carolina national forests, told me that a week or two ago he turned down a $25 check donation to the project because he figured it would cost the Government more than $25 to process it and get the agreement drawn up and signed.

Mrs. May. You do not have any such thing under this then?

Mr. McGUIRE. We do not have a formal agreement drawn up for individuals; we have one agreement with the alumni association.

The CHAIRMAN. I want to congratulate the gentleman from North Carolina for his presentation.

Mr. Burke?

Mr. BURKE. I would like to ask a question. Since I am new on this committee, could you tell me whether or not the Forest Service of the Department of Agriculture spends money?

Mr. McGUIRE. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. BURKE. For what purpose ?

Mr. McGUIRE. It spends money for three main purposes: (1) to protect and manage the 187 million acres of national forests; and' (2) it cooperates with private individuals in fire protection, tree planting, and other forestry measures; and (3) it conducts a program of forestry research.

Mr. BURKE. That is the only way it does it, so far as you knowand in personnel development programs and the like in the national forests?

Mr. McGUIRE. It carries on various personnel and other programs in connection with these three main activities.

Mr. BURKE. The reason I ask is that I notice, in glancing through this bill, that the area is designated as the “Cradle of Forestry” and "shall be administered, protected, and developed within and as a part of the Pisgah National Forest by the Secretary of Agriculture in accordance with the laws, rules, and regulations applicable to national forests in such manner as in his judgment will best provide for the purposes of this act."

Does this not mean that under the act, that is, the National Forest Act, if this bill is passed, the Secretary of Agriculture can spend money out of the general appropriations for the Forest Service?

Mr. McGUIRE. Yes, sir; he already has that authority.

Mr. BURKE. That he could; and in the long run spend money which would cost money, could he not?

Mr. McGUIRE. The construction of this facility will cost money, but this is not an authorization bill.

Mr. BURKE. I understand that, but your testimony is that this would not cost the taxpayers any money, that this would be handled by donations. I cannot understand how the bill can say one thing and you can come up and say something else that is different and put into the record a statement that it would not cost anything.

Mr. TAYLOR. If I could answer, perhaps I could point out again that the Forest Service already has the authority to construct it. It has already approved the project. It is partly complete now.

This legislation does not grant any authority whatsoever.
The Chairman, I think, Mr. Poage, placed his finger on it.

Mr. BURKE. Could I interrupt? I agree with you. Section 2 does grant the authority of the Secretary of Agriculture to run this the same as any other national forest in his management, which would mean the construction of buildings and that would mean additional personnel required for maintenance and other matters. And further, it seems to me- as I say, I am new-authorize more than just the acceptance of the money. Supposing you do not get the money from any source, the $12 million or the $10 million, whichever is suggested—and incidentally, there is nothing in the bill that says anything about that. I think the statement here is by Mr. McGuire that it would cost around $11 million in round figures, and sometimes round figures can go up to $30 million

Mr. TAYLOR. I will say to the gentleman that in my opinion section 2 is not necessary to this bill. I am not certain that it does anything. The Secretary of Agriculture already has the authority to operate the Cradle of Forestry, and he is so doing and has done so for a few years.

Mr. BURKE. All right, that is fine. But what you say is that you have no objection to that coming out. As was stated, you have no objection to the bill specifically stating that no money appropriation shall be made other than that received from donations in connection with this development.

Mr. TAYLOR. I would have objection to that.
Mr. BURKE. I thought that you would not.

Mr. Taylor. This legislation does not grant any additional spending authorities. The authority already exists. Whether the Department in the future shall see fit to request approval of spending for this

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