Dairymen of substance-in the majority, the younger men-realize that they know little or nothing about the intricacies of milk pricing and milk marketing, and they realize further that such lack of knowledge is detrimental to their future. They resent being told that theirs is solely a job of production and that their participation must stop when they unload their milk cans on the creamery platform. They feel that, for the most part, their socalled leaders, no longer have the ability, or desire, or both, to represent their producer memberships adequately. They suspect that Government is in the dairy business with the intention of staying-contrary to what they were first led to believe, and they don't like it.

But, since Government is so inextricably enmeshed in milk marketing and milk pricing, farmers must necesarily look to Government to release some of its own shackled, as well as the shakles imposed by hostile interests who have assumed control by Government sufferance. What can Government do? The recognition by Government that the ultimate salvation of the dairy farmer is in a farmer-owned and farmer-controlled organization, either nationwide or statewide or milkshedwide, which guides the milk from the cow to the consumer, would be the greatest single contribution that could be made to our dairy industry.

Obviously, this is not a project capable of overnight accomplishment, so, meanwhile on a short-range basis, dairymen believe they are entitled to:

1. A fair, competitive price for the various classes of milk under the Federal milk order, with emphasis on class 1-C, class III, fluid skim and nonfat dry milk, to the end that the excess over and above fluid needs will be channeled into manufacturing, as should be the case, instead of, as is now the case, what is not needed for profitable manufacturing, going into fluid use; and

2. Further investigation by the Senate and House Agriculture Committees of the price spreads on fluid milk and on manufactured milk products. Recommendations to the industry were made in the reports of these two committees, but they have not been followed. The Senate Committee also promised a further report about which we have heard nothing more to date.

It was more than 50 years ago, gentlemen, that the robber barons of certain industries finally met their come-uppance on two frontiers— the antitrust laws and the labor union movement. Robber barons are still with us in the milk business, only now they operate by Government authorization or Government sufferane. The cooperative movement, which was first initiated to give the producer some voice in the sale of his own product, has not proven itself to be the complete answer to the producer's needs or prayers. Our cooperatives have not succeeded in retaining producer confidence which is so essential to cooperative vitality. Dairymen believe that farm cooperation could be made to work if given half a chance, but their patience with costs constantly running ahead of income-is beginning to run out. For the questionable privilege of being an individual entrepreneur, the dairy farmer has been disenfranchised as a laborer and denied the protection and benefits enjoyed by labor as a whole. More and more, therefore, they are thinking of the advisability of labor union affiliation because they see what militant organization has done for the

laboring man. And in some areas this union affiliation is already an accomplished fact.

It is the judgment of the dairy farmers for whom I speak here today that, unless Government listens more to the grassroots and less to the so-called farm leaders, unless it encourages a real farm cooperative program, and busts wide open the milk dealer monopoly that continues to throttle the producing end of the industry with inefficient and uneconomic methods of distribution, and thus insure the dairy farmer his day-and a voice-in the market place, the dairy farmer will either abandon his farm or be driven into unionism-and between the two the choice is clear. If that is the right choice, then many of our dairy farm problems may well be solved. If, however, it is the wrong choice, the only ones to blame will be Government and our farm organizations who thus far have, whether wittingly or unwittingly is not material, failed and refused to recognize and eradicate the real cancer in the body of our dairy economy. We hope, therefore, that the new farm legislation, mentioned here today, will be just as much a "Magna Carta" for the farmer as labor regards its own Wagner Act.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.

Senator AIKEN. Mr. Chairman, I would like to correct one generally misunderstood situation. As far as the marketing orders are concerned, the milk producer of Oregon or Minnesota or Illinois could ship into the New York market. They do not prohibit shipments from any part of the country. However, 160 years ago the Bill of Rights gave to each of the States authority to set up their own regulations for their own welfare, including health regulations. And States in turn have delegated this authority to communities within their borders.

I presume in almost every State in the Union some community has set up health regulations with regard to the production and distribution of milk which are in effect trade barriers.

I do not know how the situation could be changed. I repeatedly tell our midwest friends that. How could it be changed without a constitutional amendment?

It is the health regulations, not the marketing orders, that prevent the shipment of milk into different markets.

Mr. BERGHOLD. I made reference to the marketing orders because I understood in the last 2 years Congressman Andresen, I believe, has had some legislation or suggestions regarding milk marketing orders being barriers.

Senator AIKEN. Congressman Andresen's proposal is this, that he would refuse a marketing order to any community that sets up such health regulations as do exclude the milk from other parts of the country.

Mr. BERGHOLD. I see.

Senator AIKEN. He probably could do that constitutionally. He cannot get votes to do it, though, not for some time yet.

Mr. BERGHOLD. The other point I wanted to emphasize was that the desire with which apparently midwestern dairymen look to the northeast markets is more illusory than it is real, because the benefits are not as great as imagined.

Senator AIKEN. The marketing order, if it precludes milk from other areas, does so indirectly through the health measures.

Mr. BERGHOLD. I understand.

Senator AIKEN. So to that extent you may assume that

your state

ment is correct, that it does so indirectly, but directly it cannot. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Berghold.

Mr. BERGHOLD. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Our next witness is Mr. Harold Weiss. Give your name in full for the record, please.

STATEMENT OF HAROLD WEISS, FARMINGDALE, N. J.

Mr. WEISS. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee: My name is Harold Weiss. I am from Farmingdale, N. J. I have a commercial egg farm. Eight years ago when I went into this venture, when I was separated from the Armed Forces, I thought I had a right to try what I wanted and invested all my earnings in it.

For the first few years, while I was able to pay my mortgage, my amortization, my interest, in the past few years you know it has been impossible.

În our area there are some few hundred veterans. Also, other farmers who have literally walked off their farms. I imagine you are acquainted with this.

There are farms available to be rented or to have anything done with them. People are driven off.

Last year, for argument's sake, on a family-sized farm I went into some twelve to fifteen thousand dollars extra debt. How I am going to pay this off at present prices, I do not know.

Our efficiency from what I have seen is just as good and anybody else's. Of course, there is a disease factor, and so forth.

There has to be an answer for the veteran and the younger farmer who started these ventures. If we are not given some sort of help, there canont be anything for us but to walk out and go on relief or whatever it is.

The CHAIRMAN. What further help would you expect? I think the Government has been very generous with World War veterans, do you not agree-both World War II and Korean veterans?

Mr. WEISS. It is according to what you, Senator, consider help. They have given us credit, that is true, to a certain extent. We have to repay the credit. We have to repay these funds. If we do not have a fair price for our eggs we cannot repay these funds. It is up to a certain limit that they can go along.

The FHA is foreclosing on veterans' farms today. Very good friends of mine have been foreclosed by the FHA, not due to the fact that they were inefficient but because at the time when we hit this low slump in eggs they also had disease, which is always prevalent among the flock.

Production payments, we feel, is somewhat an answer for us. are not afraid of regimentation.

We

There are these egg organizations, the farm poultry organizations that claim to speak in the name of the grassroots farmer, which is not so. To be specific, on some pretext or other-I do not know whether you are aware of it, because I heard Senator Holland say that in Florida all of the organizations were definitely against production payments or some such thing-I have seen where these organizations that claim 8,000 and 10,000 membership, how they get these names—

they get the membership-I do not know, but they run 2 or 3 meetings a year and there are 20 people at the meetings. Do these 20 people speak for all of the people? They do not.

We are grassroots people. Whoever I speak to has the same idea. Do we get a chance? We do not get a chance to have a poll, to have a vote on whether we want this or not.

If we wanted the Brannan plan, if it were thrown out to the public to be voted on, then we would really have a fair idea of whether we want it or not. If we have to have these organizations speak for us, it is not fair.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Weiss, would you suggest that if production payments were made available we would have to have a law to curtail production?

Mr. WEISS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What would be your method of curtailing the production of poultry?

Mr. WEISS. So many hens per farm for the family-sized farm. This has been pointed out. We have been losing 6 and 7 cents per dozen of eggs. As the payments go down it is true we have to increase our production.

Where I am working very hard now and sometimes have to work off the farm in order to be able to eat, I am satisfied not to work so hard and not to have the production as large as it is and get a fair price for my eggs.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you not think that the cost of administering the program that you are advocating would be tremendous and the administrative part of it would be almost insurmountable?

Mr. WEISS. I really am not familiar with these things. You may be suggesting that it is a big cost.

The CHAIRMAN. We are looking for answers to the problem. We get people to suggest what ought to be done, but when we ask them how it is to be carried out, there is no answer. You expect us to do it. Mr. WEISS. Right.

The CHAIRMAN. We are trying to get information to assist us to work out a program to assist every segment of the farming industry, if we can. That is why I am asking you for information as to how you would do it. Would you limit the number of chickens-would you curtail the number of farms, or what?

Mr. WEISS. Curtail the number of birds.

The CHAIRMAN. Suppose you had a poultry farm with 10,000 hens, and another farmer had one with 1,000 hens, would you cut them the same way, the same proportion?

Mr. WEISS. There is a certain amount of birds that you have to have in order to make a living.

The CHAIRMAN. All right; what is that minimum?

Mr. WEISS. Today there is no minimum.

The CHAIRMAN. I know; but I mean to carry through the plan you

are suggesting.

Mr. WEISS. 3.500 birds.

The CHAIRMAN. How many have you got now?

Mr. WEISS. 4,000.

.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the largest poultry farm in your area-can you tell us how many hens they have?

Mr. WEISS. Ten, fifteen thousand.

The CHAIRMAN. You would want an across the board cut?

Mr. WEISS. If they wanted to come in on the production payments; yes.

The CHAIRMAN. What would be the penalty if they did not cut?
Mr. WEISS. The penalty?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. WEISS. That they do not share in the program--they do not advocate the program.

The CHAIRMAN. How would you separate it from those who do share in it-who do comply with it?

Mr. WEISS. That is too technical for me.

The CHAIRMAN. You can see the problem, can you not?

Mr. WEISS. If you want me to see the problem

The CHAIRMAN. I want you to give us a suggestion. I think it was in Fresno, Calif., we had a lady and we asked her what would be the best way to control poultry. She said, "Get rid of all the roosters." [Laughter.] She was not trying to be funny about it. That was her answer.

Mr. WEISS. It is really not a laughing matter.

The CHAIRMAN. I know that it is not.

Mr. WEISS. She is looking for some way, and I am looking for

some way.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what we are here for. I could visit my grandsons who are playing in warm Louisiana instead of being in cold Utica, but at the same time I want you to know I enjoy doing the job that needs to be done. However, we are here to get an answer for you. The thing is to give us a way to solve your problems. Do not forget that what you are suggesting now, not only would apply to New York or New Jersey, but to the whole country.

Mr. WEISS. Right, but there is also grains-if that were a costconsidered a cost-we know there is a tremendous cost to the Government of storing grains-if that were released I am sure it might help.

The CHAIRMAN. We are considering that, at least the committee will.

We thank you very much.

Mr. WEISS. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Our next witness is Mr. Kelsey. Will you give your name in full for the record, and your occupation?

STATEMENT OF MONFORD S. KELSEY, PRESIDENT, TRISTATE MILK PRODUCERS COOPERATIVE, INC., CANASTOTA, N. Y.

Mr. KELSEY. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee; my name is Monford S. Kelsey, I reside at Canastota, N. Y., in Madison County.

I have here a personal statement, but I am also president of the Tristate Milk Producers Cooperative, Inc.

With my son we own and operate nearly 400 acres, which is strictly a dairy farm. I have owned this farm since 1920. A lot of history has been made during these 35 years.