The CHAIRMAN. Then if you will proceed and indicate to us what the United Fruit Co. is.

Mr. HANSON. Well, the United Fruit Co. is a company which is engaged in the shipping business as well as in the production of fruits in the tropics, which fruits it brings to the United States. It operates more than twenty vessels under the American flag. It has been operating those vessels for a number of years. During the World War, one of its vessels was the first American flag ship to carry American troops overseas. Its entire fleet of more than twenty vessels were requisitioned for service. It also had, at that time a number of vessels under construction in American shipyards and, when the Government wanted those, it turned over the contracts, which it could have sold to private companies for a large profit, to the Government, without even dickering about the price. As I say, I am making this prologue because, since the Jones-White bill passed in 1928, and since the United Fruit Co. has expressed an interest in that particular measure, from time to time it has been charged with being everything from a foreign flag ship company to an industrial carrier; when, as a matter of fact, it is as typical an American company as any company which is now sailing the seas.

Mr. FREE. As a matter of fact, outside of a few passengers, what freight does the United Fruit Company carry? In other words, if some other competing company had bananas down there to ship, would not there be some reason why it would be found they could not be shipped on the United Fruit Co.'s ships?

Mr. HANSON. What is that?

Mr. FREE. I realize my question is very involved; I will withdraw all of that and put it this way: Does it take any freight which is offered in that territory?

Mr. HANSON. Yes.

Mr. FREE. Of all kinds?

Mr. HANSON. Of all kinds.

Mr. FREE. Of competitors?

Mr. HANSON. Yes.

Mr. FREE. And do they get it delivered as promptly as the fruit of its own company?

Mr. HANSON. Why, of course. We are a common carrier in the ocean transportation business, bound by the conference rates and everything else and, as I say, I just merely want this opportunity to-day, gentlemen, to put the man on the stand here who knows more about this particular phase of the business of the United Fruit Co., possibly, because he has been so intimately connected with it. And I want him to tell his story and I hope you will let him proceed, because it is rather fascinating as it is unfolded. Then I want any man who has any question to ask him, just to go to it; because our cards are on the table now. That is why we are very happy to present Mr. Doswell now.

Mr. DAVIS. Mr. Hanson, you say the United Fruit Co. has been charged with being an industrial carrier?

Mr. HANSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. DAVIS. As a matter of fact, it is, is it not?

Mr. HANSON. No, sir; it is not; because it is in the business of transporting any kind of commodities which are offered to it for transportation.

Mr. DAVIS. Well the United Fruit Co., to begin with, has practically a monopoly of the banana business in the United States, has it not?

Mr. HANSON. Not that I know of, sir.

Mr. DOSWELL. I would like to answer that. We are bringing in, up to date, approximately 50 per cent.

Mr. DAVIS. Fifty per cent?

Mr. DOSWELL. In the years past we have brought in over 60 per cent, but our competitors have grown faster than we have. Up to last year, we brought in 50 per cent of all the bananas brought into the United States.

Mr. DAVIS. Fifty per cent of all the bananas brought into the United States?

Mr. DOSWELL. Brought into the United States.

Mr. DAVIS. Now what per cent of the bananas do you carry to Europe?

Mr. DOSWELL. At present, I have not got it right in my mind; but, up to a year ago we shipped to the United Kingdom and the Continent around 16,000,000 bunches; the Canary Islands, I think we brought in about 8,000,000 bunches. In the last year or two, competition has originated in Brazil and also from Jamaica, and Í think between Brazil and Jamaica our competitors are bringing in now somewhere around about 3,000,000 bunches.

Mr. DAVIS. You people are producing and exporting from the Central American countries practically all the bananas produced and exported from there, are you not?

Mr. DosWELL. By no means.

Mr. DAVIS. To the United States?

Mr. DOSWELL. By no means. We produce approximately half of the bananas we bring in; the other half we buy in Central America and Jamaica, either on open market competitive bidding, or by contracts ranging anywhere from a month to several years.

Mr. DAVIS. What percentage of the bananas brought from Central American ports to the United States are brought by others than your company?

Mr. DOSWELL. Well, you say Central America?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. DosWELL. Let us include all banana countries in Central America.

Mr. DAVIS. Well, I am getting at the ports to which your lines operate.

Mr. DOSWELL. To which our lines operate?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. DosWELL. As I just stated, we bring in to the United States half of the bananas that are brought here.

Mr. DAVIS. Yes; but you are evading my question.

Mr. DosWELL. I am not trying to.

Mr. DAVIS. I am talking about Central American countries to and from which your lines operate to the United States: What percentage of bananas are brought by others than your company to the United States?

Mr. DOSWELL. Half of the bananas.
Mr. DAVIS. From those same ports?

97876-309

Mr. DOSWELL. From those same countries.

Mr. REID. Mr. Chairman, I think we ought to finish with Mr. Hanson first, and then let the next witness go on.

Mr. DAVIS. I was questioning him when this other gentleman volunteered.

Mr. HANSON. I am ready now to turn Mr. Doswell loose on you; because, on the details, he knows a great deal more than I do of the business.

The CHAIRMAN. Does any one desire to question Mr. Hanson? Mr. REID. Did the Judge get through?

Mr. DAVIS. I think this other gentleman seems to be more capable of answering my questions.

Mr. HANSON. On the details of the business, yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Give your name to the stenographer.

STATEMENT OF C. D. DOSWELL, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED FRUIT CO.

Mr. DoSWELL. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, this is a somewhat lengthy story and, in order not to repeat myself and become involved, I have prepared a little memorandum here.

The CHAIRMAN. You are an officer of the United Fruit Co.?

Mr. DoSWELL. I am vice president of the United Fruit Co., right now in charge of traffic. I have been with them for 23 years, from office boy up to vice president; have been in every country in Central America, and am now in the United States for the past 4 years. I say, I have prepared a little memorandum here which I will read, so that I won't repeat myself.

As

Mr. REID. I object to it, unless it is directed to the particular terms of this bill.

Mr. DOSWELL. If you do not object to my telling my story—that is what I understood you called me here for. It is all with respect to this bill.

Mr. REID. We did not call you here.

Mr. DOSWELL. I am here and want to tell my story.

Mr. REID. I object to him telling his story unless the chairman rules it should be confined to the particular bill we have under consideration, H. R. 8361. If we are going to start this all over again and invesgate the United Fruit Co., I would be glad to sit in on that investigation and I think it would be advisable to do it, but not at the present time.

Mr. DOSWELL. I think it will take me about half an hour to tell the story and it all revolves around that bill.

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair, of course, will be guided by the desires of the committee. As you know, I have tried to hold the hearings to the bill we have immediately before us, but with very little success. Other witnesses have wandered and roamed about and, personally, I do not feel inclined to hold this witness any closer to the text of the bill than the others have been held; yet I do think it would be best for all concerned if the testimony was directed primarily to the bill. Mr. REID. That is what I thought.

Mr. DAVIS. Mr. Chairman, I agree with you; but, at the same time, if the gentleman desires to engage in a eulogy of his company, why I propose to cross-examine him. In other words, I do not think

it is right to the committee or right to Congress or to the public to let a man come in here and tell his side of the story and let it rest there. Mr. REID. That is the point I make. I would be willing to enter into an investigation of the United Fruit Co. at the proper time.

Mr. DAVIS. The gentleman (Mr. Reid) will agree I have not asked questions of any witness except it was directly upon the bill, unless it was cross-examination of something he volunteered.

Mr. BRIGGS. Suppose we let him go ahead.

The CHAIRMAN. He may go ahead and, if he gets too far off the track, Mr. Reid will stop him.

Mr. DOSWELL. First, the United Fruit Co. hearily indorses the principle that, wherever possible, American citizens should own and operate American-flag ships in foreign trade routes in preference to foreign-flag ships. In fact, the company is now and has been for a number of years carrying out that principle. Unfortunately, there are conditions in some of our trades which make it impractical, if not impossible, to operate American-flag ships. In order that some of these conditions may be fully appreciated and taken into consideration, I wish first to recite the part the United Fruit Co. has played in building up American export trade to Latin America and, second, the part we have played in building up the American merchant marine. Mr. REID. Now, those are the two things we objected to yesterday. Mr. ABERNETHY. Well, now, hold on a minute, Mr. Chairman. I think we have gone into a pretty broad latitude, here, and I think we will make more headway to let him make his statement and then turn him over to these other folks for cross-examination.

Mr. REID. If it is a question merely of making headway by letting somebody have their own way, that is one thing; but if you are going to proceed according to the wishes of the committee, you held the other witnesses down and I know there were some yesterday who would have been glad to have told more about themselves; I know Mr. Munson had a lot of things he wanted to say. Now, if you are going to let the United Fruit Co. say everything it wants to say, I think you are discriminating against the other witnesses and I think you ought to give them all a chance to tell how good they are and what they have done.

Mr. ABERNETHY. This was my thought about it: He has a statement there which won't take so very long and I want to state that one member of the Shipping Board cited the instance of the United Fruit Co. as one of the cases he had in mind and, in view of that situation, I think it is no more than fair, Mr. Chairman, to let him go on and make his statement.

Mr. REID. I think he should testify, too; I am objecting to his reading things that are not involved in this bill.

Mr. ABERNETHY. He is speaking not for himself, but for his company and he has a certain statement to make and it strikes me it is fair to them to let it all go in and then certain parts of it can be ruled out of the hearings, if they are not pertinent, if the committee so decides.

Mr. KADING. Mr. Chairman, I believe we will make more progress if we let the gentleman continue until it is evident he is getting on a side-track.

Mr. REID. That is evident now. He is stating how patriotic the United Fruit Co. was to the United States during the war, and all those things.

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair feels this way about the situation: The United Fruit Co. has been referred to by various witnesses and mention has been made of the United Fruit Co. in cross-examination. I think that puts this company in a little different attitude and a little different relation to this hearing than though it came here simply for the purpose of making a statement about the bill.

Mr. REID. Of course, if they think they have been indicted by the committee and want to make a defense, why all right. That is up to them.

The CHAIRMAN. It seems to me, also, that we probably will make headway if we will let him run along with his direct statement.

If

I could have had my way throughout this hearing, it would have been confined to the bill; but I think every member of the committee who is in the room will appreciate that many witnesses have departed in some degree and some of them to some length, at least, from the observance of that rule, and it is pretty hard work to tell, when once depart from it, where to put the limit of statement or examination. I personally hope the gentleman [Mr. Reid] will not insist on any point of order, but will permit the witness to go on.

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Mr. REID. If I could think of the appropriate point of order to make to stop him, I would do it; but evidently it is not possible. The CHAIRMAN. I think we will get through faster.

Mr. DOSWELL. Shall I proceed?

The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed.

Mr. DOSWELL. I regret to bore you. I am not here to wave the flag or talk about 100 per cent patriotism, but I have a statement to make which I think is essential.

The origin of our business goes back to the time of the American sailing ships in the seventies, trading out of New England to the West Indies. They had southbound cargoes, but nothing to bring backno northbound cargoes-and they experimented and were ultimately successful with small return cargoes of fruit from the West Indies. This was the remnant of the former American merchant marine. As we, as a nation, declined as a maritime power with the transition from sail to steam, small foreign ships, especially Norwegians, found their way into the trade. Under existing conditions, foreigners were not only able to construct and operate very economically, but the owners and builders were far sighted enough to go ahead and construct ships particularly adaptable to this trade for charter at reasonable rates.

Thirty years ago, when the United Fruit Co. was formed, this type of ship predominated in these trades. Later on, as we foresaw the possibility of developing American export trade to Latin America with combination freight and passenger ships, we undertook the construction of such ships and have since built up a large fleet. This owned fleet was built abroad and operated for some years under a foreign flag for the simple reason that at that time there was little or no construction in American yards for the foreign trade and we had to build abroad and operate under a foreign flag to be on a parity with our numerous competitors who were operating foreign flag ships. These particular competitors were the Hamburg-American Line, German, and the Royal Mail, British. With the passage of the Panama Canal act, which made it possible for us to transfer this