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am I correct that under the bill, section 9, which deals with appropriations and interim financing, section 9(b) which gives the President the right to cause any unobligated balances of appropriations or contract authorizations to be allocated to any project under this bill, if the Congress proceeds to appropriate the $190 million for the RS-70 program for which we authorized funds in the bill passed in Congress last week, after we had appropriated those funds, if they hadn't yet been obligated, is it true that the President could just take the whole $190 million that we thought should be used to build RS-70's and build firehouses throughout the country under this bill?
General Cassidy. I am afraid that is a question that I could not answer, sir. It is
Mr. BALDWIN. Well, I hope you have read the bill. You are the only Defense Department witness we have had.
General Cassidy. Yes, sir; and it involves a legal interpretation of the wording of the bill. As you have read it to me, it would seem that the President could use any unobligated funds, but as I say, I am not an expert in these matters.
Mr. CRAMER. Would the gentleman yield ?
Mr. BALDWIN. Well, I think we should have an authoritative answer from the Department of Defense on that point and if you feel, General, that as of now you are not qualified to give such an answer, could we ask that you provide this committee with an answer from whoever in the Department of Defense is qualified to answer that specific question ?
General Cassidy. I am not qualified and I will ask the Department to provide you with a witness, sir.
Mr. BALDWIN. Either a statement in the record or a witness.
Mr. Baldwin. Well, I would just like to have a statement in the record. Mr. Chairman, may I ask unanimous consent that General Cassidy submit to us a statement from whomever he feels is the appropriate person in the Department of Defense to answer my question ?
Mr. BLATNIK. Yes. May I just clarify one point! I don't know whether it is within the prerogatives or proper for the general to initiate your requestion. May we not initiate the request here?
Mr. BALDWIN. Then may I ask the committee to initiate that requestion of the Secretary of Defense?
Mr. BLATNIK. And it will be properly done through the Corps of Engineers. We will ask that it be done. If not, we will initiate it at the chairman's request, initiate it to the Department of Defense. That is the proper procedure, I think.
Mr. CRAMER. May I ask that that request be amended to include a list of all unobligated funds in all departments under your jurisdiction at the present time, and a statement as to which, if any, or if all of them would be subject to transfer under this section 9(b) of the bill.
General CASSIDY. Yes.
Unobligated balances of civil works appropriations as of Feb. 28, 1962 Appropriation :
Unobligated balance Mississippi River and tributaries
$14, 760, 975 Construction, general.
186, 552, 591 General investigations--
7, 926, 409 Operation and maintenance.
62, 893, 361 General expense--
4, 714, 600 Miscellaneous..
1, 751, 608
278, 600, 544 NOTE. These funds would be subject to transfer under section 9(b) of the bill (H.R. 10318).
Mr. CRAMER. That is in addition to the request on the RS-70, if funds are appropriated.
Mr. BLATNIK. The RS-70 is not under their jurisdiction at all. General CASSIDY. No, sir.
Mr. Baldwin. But this is the only witness in the Department of Defense that, to my knowledge, is scheduled for appearance. That is the reason I asked the question.
Mr. BLATNIK. The corps is in charge of certain civil works and military works in the construction of facilities, but when it comes to actual defense expenditures, it is out of their jurisdiction. We shall have the request made.
Mr. BALDWIN. Thank you.
General Cassidy. If I may make one statement, sir, I am representing the Department of the Army. I believe, in my statement which I read to you of the Secretary of Defense's comments, the Secretary of the Army's comments on the bills, he was representing the Secretary of Defense at that time in my quote. I am only representing the Secretary of the Army here.
Mr. Baldwin. Thank you.
Mr. CRAMER. And the request, Mr. Chairman, should, as it relates to matters in the Defense Department, properly go to the Secretary of Defense and those relating to the general's jurisdiction should go to him.
Mr. BLATNIK. Sure.
Mr. CRAMER. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question? A comment has been made with regard to advance planning for public works in section 10, page 11, of this bill which has to do with the Housing and Home Finance advance planning funds, removing the authorization limit of $58 million, the suggestion or the implication that, as a result of that, you would make funds available for projects under your jurisdiction for advance planning. You commented in your statement that advance planning funds being made available during that acceleration period might be helpful. But isn't it true that the Housing and Home Finance advance planning funds type of project is not the same type of project as under your jurisdiction? General CASSIDY. That would be correct, sir. The mention that I
. , . made in my opening statement would be for advanced public funds for the civil works program of the Corps of Engineers.
I stated that other agencies of the Federal Government might require the same advanced planning.
Mr. CRAMER. So that if there were to be advanced planning funds that would in any way accelerate your program or permit you to put into effect programs that could be completed within a year, those funds would have to come out of a direct appropriation from the Congress. Right?
General CASSIDY. That is correct. What we would do, if this bill were passed, at the next appropriation-the next budget, I would ask for funds for planning action under this bill.
Mr. CRAMER. Is it not true also that the planning directed toward this bill would have to be limited to the scope of the bill and that is projects which would be completed within a year?
General CASSIDY. That is correct, sir.
Mr. CRAMER. So that you would have that additional limitation under the bill itself?
General CASSIDY. Yes, sir.
Mr. CRAMER. And you indicate that those categories of projects are rather restricted, such as recreation, on page 3, which you refer to. As a matter of fact, it is a small portion of your work. Is that right?
General CASSIDY. That is correct, sir.
Mr. CRAMER. What portion of it would you say it is? How much moneywise would it amount to in annual expenditures!
General Cassidy. Annually, it is about $10 million. But under a program such as this it would be possible for us to expend—I believe it is some $65 million for construction of recreational facilities at our existing reservoirs.
Mr. CRAMER. You could expend that much out of this?
General Cassidy. This would be to provide roads, parking areas, sanitary facilities, launching ramps, picnic areas
Mr. CRAMER. Boat-launching ramps? General Cassidy. Boat-launching ramps, water supplies, all the facilities that go to make a good recreational area at a reservoir.
Mr. Cramer. How much has been appropriated this year for that?
General Cassidy. I do not remember offhand the 1962 appropriation, but for the 1963 request it is about $10 million, sir.
Mr. CRAMER. How much authorization do you have in that pro
General Cassidy. There is no existing limitation in the authorization for recreational facilities as such.
Mr. CRAMER. Now, in 1958 there was an accelerated public works program, a very substantial one, and a good portion of it was under your jurisdiction, was it not?
General Cassidy. Yes, sir.
Mr. CRAMER. How much additional money was made available under that acceleration program in 1958?
General Cassidy. I would have to supply that for the record.
Mr. CRAMER. It was a very substantial amount, was it not?
Mr. CRAMER. And that was made available through the request of the President and congressional action, through the Appropriations Committees, to start new projects and accelerate present projects, was it not?
General Cassidy. It was to start as many new projects as possible and to accelerate the going projects, yes, sir.
(The material requested is as follows.)
Mr. CRAMER. Now, is it not true that of the programs that you have jurisdiction over, particularly in the field of rivers and harbors and flood control, they are not large employee-type projects, are they?
You have one or two dredges on a multimillion-dollar project that works all year, and even if you increased the appropriation, doubling it in a given year, to bring in another dredge for a few more employees, even though you had to spend another million or a million and a half dollars
to pay for that work, you would have to do that. Is that not correct?
It is not a make-work type of project or a substantial employment program, is it?
General Cassidy. It is not a make-work program of the direct type, and, of course, the number of employees varies considerably with the type of work from just a few on dredging to many on the recreational-type programs.
Mr. CRAMER. So that the largest portion of your total program would not make a substantial contribution to the unemployment problem. Is that right?
General Cassidy. Not directly. That is correct, sir.
Mr. CRAMER. What is your comment with regard to the effect of this program, particularly in the field of acceleration?
As I gather it, you indicated that you feel that under the terms of the bill that if an acceleration of even a large project can be gotten underway, within a reasonable short period of time, even though that acceleration itself is not completed within a year, you have authority under the bill to go into that, is that right, under section 8(a)i?
General Cassidy. As I read this bill, it states that the project will be completed within 1 year. Some acceleration on our major projects would not come under this bill.
Mr. CRAMER. You do not believe it would come under it?
General CASSIDY. No, sir. I do not see how it would, under the wording, as I understand it.
Mr. CRAMER. Now, when it comes to creating a shelf of authorized projects that could be put into effect, do you not have such a shelf in existence now? Is it necessary to set up priority on this project?
General Cassidy. We have a shelf of authorizations, sir, and on the major projects there are generally from 1 to 2 years of design before we can onto construction. So I would not say that we had a shelf of projects that were ready to go. We just have a shelf of authorizations. s must be a long-term program to get it underway.
Mr. CRAMER. This legislation does not contemplate or authorize additional planning moneys for your types of projects but, rather, only planning in housing and home finance-type of projects.
So how is this bill going to help you increase your projects on the shelf if you do not get money or if this does not authorize planning money for your projects?
General Cassidy. This bill would, as I see it, in effect, authorize the corps to request planning money for the small projects which could fit under this bill.
Mr. CRAMER. Where in the bill does it provide that?
Mr. CRAMER. Where does it authorize you to ask for planning money?
General Cassidy. There is no specific language, as such, sir, but if the program is authorized I would feel that I could request Congress for the funds.
Mr. CRAMER. Do you have an idea of the estimate of the cost of that? How much would you ask for?
General Cassidy. I have no idea of that estimate right now, sir.
Mr. CRAMER. Can you likewise submit the other information I requested for the record ?
General Cassidy. Referring to the-whether or not funds, unobligated funds, could be diverted from present appropriations? Mr. CRAMER. No. No, I think earlier in my questioning I asked
. that the information be submitted with regard to the last antirecession public works program.
General CASSIDY. Yes, sir.
Mr. CRAMER. How much money was authorized as a result of the President's request! I would like to know how much of it was
? actually used.
I would like to know how long it took to get the projects underway, and I would like to know your estimate of what additional employment resulted.
General CASSIDY. Yes, sir. Mr. CRAMER. Thank you. (The information requested is as follows:) The funds appropriated during the 1958 recession were for projects already under construction. The additional funds were all utilized for speeding up the work awarding additional contracts earlier than scheduled so as to create immediate employment. Our estimates indicated that 150,000 people would be employed with the additional appropriation of $125 million.
Mr. Robison. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Robison. General, it has been said that this proposal in both parts would increase the power of the President and, to a certain extent, reduce, at least indirectly, the congressional power over the machinery for construction of public works of one kind or another.
Whether or not that be so, my question to you is this: