could very well face the Nation with more than 900 communities that were affected, Congressman Cramer. So I think

Mr. CRAMER. Yes.

Secretary RIBICOFF. I think in one instance we are taking care presently of immediate needs that we can identify, and the $2 billion bill would be triggered into effect at some future time when the situation warrants the basic needs for the general economy of our Nation. Mr. CRAMER. Well, now, your statement on page 6:

in the waste-treatment plant construction program, for instance, the Federal share cannot exceed 30 percent of the cost of the project

but under this bill it would go up to 50 percent by way of grant. Is that right?

Secretary RIBICOFF. Correct, sir.

Mr. CRAMER. And then bevond that the Federal Government can. loan the other 50 percent to the local community, isn't that correct? Secretary RIBICOFF. That is correct.

Mr. CRAMER. And there is no requirement for that community to be in a depressed area, is there, in the legislation? That is not a criteria for getting the 50-percent loan, grant.

Secretary RIBICOFF. I think if you will look on page 9 of the bill, there is a provision, section VIII (a) (4), which contributes significantly to the reduction of unemployment. So in order to be eligible, there would have to be that condition that this particular grant or grant and loan would help to reduce unemployment.

Mr. CRAMER. Not related to a given area but anywhere in the country, if it in fact results in employing people, then it helps the unemployment situation, but it doesn't have to go to a grossly unemployed area or depressed area.

Secretary RIBICOFF. I don't interpret it that way. We are not talking to a situation where it could increase employment, but the bill spells out to the reduction of unemployment. I think there is a great deal of difference. If you are talking about creating new jobs as against reducing unemployment at the present time, I think there is a distinction. But let me say this, Congressman Cramer, that basically bills are written and during discussions such as this, and this is why they are valuable, if there are some fine points that bother people, they can easily be remedied by a few simple words in the language of the bill.

Mr. CRAMER. You have suggested two areas in HEW where you think it might be effective. Water pollution and Hill-Burton, right? Secretary RIBICOFF. Right. These are the areas within the jurisdiction of the Department that involve substantial capital projects and over which we have jurisdiction. So I just handled these two; yes, sir.

Mr. CRAMER. How are either of those programs going to come within the 12-month completion requirements? You can't even build a hospital in 12 months.

Secretary RIBICOFF. No. The record for water pollution and sewage treatment plants indicates that practically all the projects could be started and finished within a year's time. When it came to hospitals, naturally a large hospital could not be built in a year's time. But a small hospital could. The addition of a part of an existing hospital could. So basically we find, and Mr. McCallum could so testify this, that we could take care of many sewage and water treatment plants within a year's time, isn't that correct?

Dr. MCCALLUM. That is correct. We know of more than 3,000 projects that could be completed within a year.

Mr. HARVEY. Will the gentleman yield there?

Mr. CRAMER. Yes.

Mr. HARVEY. Does that include land acquisition as well in that year's time?

Dr. MCCALLUM. Yes; that could be done. Past experience has shown it has been.

Mr. CRAMER. Engineering work done in a year?

Dr. MCCALLUM. Yes; they would be smaller projects, not real large

ones.

Mr. CRAMER. That is the point. Let's get in focus what we are talking about, what could be implemented by this bill. You could only, because of the time limitation of a year, get into projects that could have acquisition of land, engineering and letting of contracts, and actual construction, completed within a year.

Secretary RIBICOFF. I think it should be kept in mind that many of these projects have been planned, land acquired, architects' and engineers' drawings finished.

Mr. CRAMER. Preliminary.

Secretary RIBICOFF. I would say many of them final.

Mr. CRAMER. A lot of communities wait for Federal funds.

Secretary RIBICOFF. No; this is not my understanding from Mr. McCallum. And it isn't my understanding from my own experience that many, many of these projects are often planned with land available waiting their turn for money being available, and we would be able to submit a substantial list of projects in all the States today in the field of water pollution and waste sewage plants that could be ready to go immediatley. Isn't that correct, Mr. McCallum? Mr. MCCALLUM. That is correct.

Secretary RIBICOFF. And I would be pleased to present that for the record at this time.

(The following was furnished for insertion :)

The attached table lists the status of engineering and the number of sewage treatment projects which could be constructed in a period of 12 months or less for 2,054 projects for which applications for grants were in process or in preparation as of January 15, 1962. This shows that 393, or 19.1 precent, had final plans and specifications; 715, or 34.8 percent, had done preliminary planning; and 1,179, or 57.4 percent, would have construction periods of 12 months or less. The Conference of State Sanitary Engineers has completed a survey which reveals that as of January 1, 1962, there was a backlog of 5,290 sewage treatment works projects. Applying the above percentages to this number, it is estimated that 3,000 projects from the national backlog of 5,290 would have construction periods of 12 months or less.

Mr. CRAMER. I wish you would. It would be helpful. Because of the year's limitation, it would limit it to small projects, according to your testimony as I understand it.

Secretary RIBICOFF. Naturally a smaller project could be built much faster than a larger project.

Mr. CRAMER. So the big depressed area, the big unemployment areas in the country, the larger communities wouldn't be benefited under what your Department could do?

Secretary RIBICOFF. I would say that many communities could, and I would say this, Mr. Cramer, that if you couldn't benefit all, that is no excuse that you shouldn't benefit what you could. I mean,

this is certainly a way of frustrating activity by saying if we can't do it all, we don't want to do any, and I believe that we can do a substantial number.

Now, there are 40 areas of continuous substantial unemployment. There are 40 major areas and there as 66 small areas. Now, take your own State of Florida. Fort Lauderdale and Hollywood are a smaller area and if any of you want to ask questions on any of your other States-Hollywood is now in for a grant. Their eligible project is $580,000 with a grant offer of $174,000. So throughout the Nation today, in practically every State, you have these projects available. In Florida you have pending in the State agencies Sebring, Hallandale, Melbourne, Indian Rocks Beach, McCoy Creek Sanitary Division, Hollister Safety Harbor, Sanford, Daytona Beach, Lakeland, Duval County, and Hollywood. So these

Mr. CRAMER. Yes, and I would like to know how many of those areas have already completed their engineering and are ready to go for construction and how many would qualify under the 1-year limitation.

Mr. MCCALLUM. We can get that information.

Mr. CRAMER. Do you have any idea how many have finished their engineering and are ready to go to contract letting?

Mr. MCCALLUM. I wouldn't want to give you an answer on that because I am not familiar enough with each individual State.

Mr. CRAMER. The truth of the matter is, isn't it, that most of them are waiting for Federal matching money before they go into engineering.

Mr. MCCALLUM. The records won't show that. As a matter of fact, the number that have gone ahead without Federal aid since this program started has actually increased. Construction in

Mr. CRAMER. I mean on these for which application for Federal money is pending. I am not talking about those that have gone ahead without Federal money. These which have made application. How many of them have finished their engineering and can meet the 1-year construction requirement?

Mr. MCCALLUM. We can supply that for the record. (The following was furnished for insertion :)

There are 14 projects in Florida for which applications are in process or in preparation. Of this number, seven have done preliminary planning and an additional seven have final plans and specifications. Thirteen of the fourteen projects would have a construction period of 12 months or less.

Mr. CRAMER. The Secretary takes the position, and I appreciate the position, that the smaller communities, those with projects that can be completed within a year, they should be included, but the counter argument is why should the larger communities that may have more serious unemployment problems be excluded?

For instance, almost every one of these 40 major areas would be excluded for those public works projects couldn't be completed within a year. They couldn't even participate in the program. And not only that, the $2 billion bill isn't limited to this list at all. The $600 million bill is.

Let's go to hospitals. I wish you would provide that for the record. And as to hospitals, as I understand the Secretary's answer,

the same would be true. If you could use the money for smaller hospitals, it would take a year to construct and not otherwise, is that correct?

Secretary RIBICOFF. I have with me Dr. Jack Haldeman, the Chief of the Division of Hospital Medical Facilities of the Public Health Service, whose job it is to handle this phase and he would be pleased to address himself to the details of this problem.

Dr. HALDEMAN. Yes. Under the Hill-Burton program, a large percentage of our projects normally are for our small projects because the Hill-Burton legislation is priority to rural areas. The survey which the Secretary referred to does have a large number of projects in relatively small areas. In addition, many of the projects are for renovation or modernization. We feel that any project that is under a million dollars would be able to complete construction within a year after plans and specifications have been developed.

Mr. CRAMER. All right. We have got 40 major areas here listed as depressed areas. How many of those areas could qualify, number one, from the 1-year construction limitation standpoint, and secondly, from the standpoint of having an application pending for which engineering has been completed?

Dr. HALDEMAN. I would anticipate there could be a relatively large number of projects in those areas.

Mr. CRAMER. Will you supply that for the record?

Dr. HALDEMAN. We will be glad to do so.

(The following was furnished for insertion:)

Hospital and medical facility projects in depressed areas which could be approved under the provision of H.R. 10318,1 March 1962

1 Sources: The U.S. Department of Labor Magazine, "Area Labor Market Trends," March 1962; and reports provided by Hill-Burton State agencies showing projects which could be approved under the Hill-Burton program in fiscal year 1963, if there were no limitations on Federal funds.

2 States having no depressed areas.