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Mr. PASVOLSKY. Well, I do not think that there would be any more ill will engendered by the fact that a discussion of that sort takes place. Recommendations would be made to nations in general that certain practices should not be tolerated.

Senator MILLIKIN. Are you not providing means whereby complaints may be focused against ourselves in an official way?

Mr. PASVOLSKY. Complaints can be made at any time and in any way. What is important is that we are providing here a mechanism by means of which maladjustments can be corrected and, therefore, fewer complaints made.

Senator MILLIKIN. Would the investigation of racial discriminations be within the jurisdiction of this body?

Mr. PASVOLSKY. Insofar, I imagine, as the Organization takes over the function of making studies and recommendations on human rights, it may wish to make studies in those fields and make pronouncements. Senator VANDENBERG. At that point I wish you would reemphasize what you read from the Commission Report specifically applying the exemption of domestic matters to the Social and Economic Council. Mr. PASVOLSKY. I will read that paragraph again. Senator VANDENBERG. Yes, please.

Mr. PASVOLSKY (reading):"

The members of Committee 3 of Commission II are in full agreement that nothing contained in chapter IX can be construed as giving authority to the Organization to intervene in the domestic affairs of Member states.

The CHAIRMAN. And, furthermore, whether they do involves no compulsion whatever, but is in the nature of recommendations to the States, and the States are perfectly free to take such recommendations or reject them.

Mr. PASVOLSKY. Quite right.

Senator MILLIKIN. Is there any other international aspect to a labor problem or a racial problem or a religious problem that does not originate domestically?

The CHAIRMAN. Senator, I do not want to intervene, but it seems to me that you are getting far afield and are getting into an argument with the witness.

Senator MILLIKIN. I do not want to argue.

The CHAIRMAN. I am just throwing out that word of caution.

Senator MILLIKIN. I will accept the chairman's ruling.

The CHAIRMAN. I will not rule. I will leave it up to you.

Senator MILLIKIN. I will withdraw the question.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead, if you like; but Dr. Pasvolsky is trying to explain to us what the Charter says and what it means, rather than testifying as to what may happen in some contingency.

I do not want to put any limitation on Senators; they can ask anything on earth. The only consideration I had in mind was that we are trying to speed this matter, and I hope to conclude with Dr. Pasvolsky sometime during the day.

Senator MILLIKIN. I will simply repeat my question.

This Organization, you said, concerns itself with the international aspects of these various matters. Is there any international aspect of any of these matters that operates entirely within its own vacuum that does not originate within domestic jurisdictions?

Mr. PASVOLSKY. Well, Senator, I suppose we can say that there is no such thing as an international problem that is not related to national problems, because the word "international" itself means that there are nations involved. What domestic jurisdiction relates to here, I should say, as it does in all of these matters, is that there are certain matters which are handled internally by nations which do not affect other nations or may not affect other nations. On the other hand, there are certainly many matters handled internally which_do_affect other nations and which by international law are considered to be of concern to other nations.

Senator MILLIKIN. For example, let me ask you if this would be true. It is conceivable that there are racial questions on the southern shores of the Mediterranean that might have very explosive effects under some circumstances; but they originate locally, do they not, Doctor?

Mr. PASVOLSKY. Yes.

Senator MILLIKIN. And because they might have explosive effects, this Organization might concern itself with them; is that correct?

Mr. PASVOLSKY. It might, if somebody brings them to the attention of the Organization.

Senator MILLIKIN. And by the same token, am I correct in this, that in any racial matter, any of these matters we are talking about, that originate in one country domestically and that has the possib lity of making international trouble, might be subject to the investigation and recommendations of the Organization?

Mr. PASVOLSKY. I should think so, because the Organization is created for that.

Senator MILLIKIN. Mr. Chairman, you have been very courteous to me, and I am perfectly willing to abide your ruling.

The CHAIRMAN. I shall not make any ruling.

Senator BARKLEY. Is it not true that almost every problem that concerns international relations must originate somewhere, and that somewhere usually is within the domestic boundaries of one nation and may leap over into another nation and create an international situation?

Mr. PASVOLSKY. Of course.

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Senator BARKLEY. Not only economically but from every other standpoint?

Mr. PASVOLSKY. In every respect, of course.

The CHAIRMAN. Proceed, Doctor, with all due speed.

Mr. PASVOLSKY. Chapters XI, XII, and XIII relate to something that is again left to future determination rather than to immediate action.

Chapter XI is a declaration by those Members of the United Nations which may assume responsibility for the administration of territories whose peoples have not attained the full measure of self-government. They recognize certain principles that ought to govern their relations to such peoples.

Chapters XII and XIII deal with the fact that as a result of the last war there were certain territories that were detached from Germany and Turkey and which became international wards. That is, they were not attached through ties of political sovereignty to any indi vidual nation.

It is also recognized that some such similar territories may be detached, as a result of this war, from the enemy states. Therefore, there is a need for providing for a possible international trusteeship system which would relate to those types of territories, and also, as a third category, to any territory that might be placed voluntarily under the trusteeship system.

The precise territories which would be placed under a system like this, which would come from the three categories I have just mentioned, will be determined later on by agreement among the countries concerned. Those agreements would then be subject to approval by the Organization, if the Organization is to assume the functions which are indicated here.

These chapters set up a system, including the Trusteeship Council, which makes a very realistic and clear distinction between the strategic considerations and humanitarian considerations involved. The system places for the future within the competence of the General Assembly all matters not relating to strategic problems, and places within the competence of the Security Council all matters relating to security problems of strategic areas.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, if it will not bother you, I would like to intervene right there with a short statement and a couple of letters to put into the record. I think it will help you in your discussion.

I would like to advise the committee, if it is not already advised, that in the consideration of this trusteeship matter we had the constant counsel and advice of representatives of the War and Navy Departments who were at San Francisco. We had a couple of generals and a couple of admirals and their staffs.

I have here and I ask to have inserted in the record a letter from Secretary of War Stimson which sets forth the attitude of his Department. It reads as follows [reading]:

Hon. Toм CONNALLY,

WAR DEPARTMENT, Washington, July 6, 1945.

Chairman, Senate Committee on Foreign Relations,

Washington, D. C.

DEAR SENATOR CONNALLY: The War Department, through the military advisers at the United Nations Conference on International Organization in San Francisco, has carefully followed the formulation of the Charter of the United Nations and has examined the text of the Charter as set forth in Document No. 1191, G/128, dated June 25, 1945, of the United Nations Conference on International Organization, which the Department of State advises is the text now being considered by the Committee on Foreign Relations.

The War Department is of the opinion that the military and strategic implications of this Charter as a whole are in accordance with the military interests of the United States.

Very sincerely yours,

HENRY L. STIMSON, Secretary of War.

I have also here a letter from the Secretary of the Navy at somewhat greater length, which is as follows [reading]:

Hon. Tом CONNALLY,

THE SECRETARY OF THE NAVY,
Washington, July 9, 1945.

Chairman, Senate Foreign Relations Committee,

United States Senate, Washington, D. C.

MY DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: The Secretary of State has suggested that it would be appropriate at this time for me to communicate to you the views of the Navy Department concerning the proposed Charter of the United Nations International Organization which is now pending before your committee.

75608-45- -21

A draft text of the Charter, which is substantially the same as the one pending before your committee, was submitted by the Secretary of War and the Secretary of Navy to the Joint Chiefs of Staff with the request that they furnish the Secre taries with a recommendation concerning the military and strategic implications of the Charter. In response thereto, the Joint Chiefs of Staff stated the following: "The Joint Chiefs of Staff have examined the enclosed draft text of the Charter of the United Nations International Organization as furnished them by the military advisers at the San Francisco Conference. They are of the opinion that the military and strategic implications of this draft charter as a whole are in accord with the military interests of the United States."

As I have heretofore indicated to the Secretary of State, I concur in this recommendation of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

In the Charter which you have before you, provision is made at various points for the negotiation of future agreements. To my mind, it is most important that whenever such agreements involve matters of military or strategic interest— such as placing of territory in trusteeship, the composition and command of the armed forces to be made available to the Security Council, regional arrangements, plans for the limitation of armaments, and the like-the War and Navy Departments should be actively consulted before any definitive action by the Government is determined upon.

A further specific comment concerning the Charter, which I believe to be of sufficient importance to warrant calling it to your attention, has to do with the chapter on the trusteeship system. This chapter has been a matter of particular concern to the Navy because of our recognition of the fact that undivided control of certain strategic areas in the Pacific wrested from the Japanese by our armed forces in this war, is essential to the security of this country. Our agreement that this Charter is in accord with the military interest of this country is conditioned by our understanding that the United States is not committed by this charter or any provision thereof to place under trusteeship any territory of any character, and that if this country hereafter determines to place any territory under trusteeship this will be done only on such terms as it may then voluntarily agree to.

Sincerely yours,

JAMES FORRESTAL.

Senator JOHNSON of California. What is it he says about "as a whole"?

The CHAIRMAN. I am quoting, now, from the Joint Chiefs of Staff [reading]:

The Joint Chiefs of Staff have examined the enclosed draft text of the Charter of the United Nations International Organization as furnished them by the military advisers at the San Francisco Conference. They are of the opinion that the military and strategic implications of this draft charter as a whole are in accord with the military interests of the United States.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Is there any other part of it that is in accord with anything?

The CHAIRMAN. "As a whole," I think, would cover it all.

Senator JOHNSON of California. That would mean who would select the soldiers who would go out and fight this war?

The CHAIRMAN. The United States would have to make the primary selection by making an agreement with the Security Council as to the quotas, and so forth and so on.

Senator JOHNSON of California. You mean, the agreement that is provided by the Charter?

The CHAIRMAN. An agreement that is to be made under the Charter whenever that matter comes up. It has to be ratified by the Senate and by all the nations that make such agreements.

Senator JOHNSON of California. I am doubtful about the phraseology of that-"as a whole".

The CHAIRMAN. It is spelled w-h-o-l-e.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Yes; I understand that.

The CHAIRMAN. We are not getting into a hole. This refers particularly to the trusteeship. It does not refer to the general activities of the Council.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Who is to determine that "whole"?

The CHAIRMAN. Those are the opinions of the Secretaries of War and Navy that I was quoting.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Are you in accord with them?

The CHAIRMAN. I think so. We signed the Charter on the theory that our interests in the Pacific and elswhere were amply protected. The first thing to note is that no territory can be placed under trusteeship without the consent of the nations affected. If we are in possession of an island in the Pacific our interests are sure to be affected, and it cannot be placed under trusteeship except with our consent. When territories are so placed the conditions under which they are placed under the trusteeship must be agreed to by the affected nations. In short, it was our attitude that if we are in possession of an island which we have conquered from Japan at the cost of blood and treasure we can remain in possession of it, if it is within a strategic area, until we consent to have it go under trusteeship; and when we do agree that it go under the trusteeship, we have the right to stipulate the terms upon which it will go there.

Senator JOHNSON of California. And if those terms are satisfactory to everybody, they would be adopted, would they not?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Senator JOHNSON of California. If they were not satisfactory to everybody, what would become of it?

The CHAIRMAN. It would not be everybody; it would be those nations that have particular interest or claim upon that particular area.

Senator JOHNSON of California. We have very serious claims concerning lands which, at the great cost of blood, we have taken from Japan.

The CHAIRMAN. Under our conception, all we have to do is to hold on to them until such time as we need to give them up. I do not think we would want to give them up if they are in strategic areas. If we did, we would give them up with strings on them which would guarantee

Senator JOHNSON of California. Who would determine the strings? The CHAIRMAN. We would-the United States.

Senator JOHNSON of California. You would determine them in accord with our views?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; absolutely.

Senator JOHNSON of California. And we would keep any lands we have taken or that our troops have taken, with the loss of a million men?

The CHAIRMAN. The Senator has stated my views correctly. It is conceivable that there might be some territories within a strategic area, which would be large enough so that we might retain those portions necessary for military and naval purposes and yet put the other portions where the population resided under some qualified trusteeship.

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