Mr. REUSS. What was the nature of Mr. Walker's business in Denver?

Mr. DICKENSON. I am told that Mr. Walker is conferring with officials of our Rocky Mountain regional office and others in connection with his transition from the directorship.

Mr. REUSS. Very well. You may step down for the moment and I ask Mr. Demarest to take the stand. Thank you, gentlemen, and we will recall you.

Would you state your name?

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM F. DEMAREST, JR., COUNSEL, SUBCOMMITTEE ON ACTIVITIES OF REGULATORY AGENCIES OF THE PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS

Mr. DEMAREST. Do you want me to be sworn?

Mr. REUSS. I will in a moment. Would you state your name first? Mr. DEMAREST. William F. Demarest, Jr.

Mr. REUSS. And what are your duties?

Mr. DEMAREST. I am counsel to the House Permanent Select Committee on Small Business.

Mr. REUSS. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. DEMAREST. I do.

Mr. REUSS. Mr. Demarest, will you tell us anything you may have been able to ascertain with respect to Mr. Walker's movements in the last 24 hours?

Mr. DEMAREST. Mr. Chairman, yesterday it was ascertained that Mr. Walker was not in Washington, D.C. I subsequently verified, by telephone call to United Airlines, that an R. Walker had, in fact, a reservation on a flight to Denver, Colo., leaving Dulles Airport at approximately 11:30. Subsequent telephone calls confirmed that, in fact, Mr. Walker was in Denver, Colo.

I was thereafter informed by Mr. Kyl, Assistant Secretary of Interior, that Mr. Walker would make every effort consistent with airline availability to return to Washington to attend this hearing. I determined that it would be necessary for us to verify airline availability, and therefore called United Airlines at phone number 893-3400, was told the flight from Denver to Dulles-pardon me, to Baltimore— would leave Denver at approximately 4:15, and that no seats were available. I thereupon called TWA at 659-1000, and ascertained that a flight leaving at 4:45 from Denver, Colo., with a change of planes in Chicago, arriving 11:04 in Baltimore, had a reservation for one R. Walker and one D. Blazer-I do not know the first names-which had been canceled by United Airlines. There were, at 5 p.m. eastern standard time, approximately seven seats remaining on that flight.

Mr. REUSS. Are there any questions from the committees?
Thank you. Mr. Demarest. You may stand down.

Mr. Dingell, it appears to me that on the undisputed evidence the committees are not being told the truth, and that the witness, Mr. Walker, is contemptuous of the committees. I would, therefore, recommend to you, sir, that you take the necessary steps via subpena to compel the appearance of the witness, and that the hearing, when it concludes this morning, will be simply held in recess so that we can proceed as soon as the U.S. marshal appears with the body.

Mr. DINGELL. Mr. Chairman, I cordially agree with you on this. It appears to me that the witness is neither playing fair with his superiors in the Department nor is he playing fair with the committees, nor is he properly responding to the committees. I am pleased to inform you that I am authorized by the chairman of the Committee on Small Business, pursuant to our rules, to issue the necessary subpena to guarantee the appearance of Mr. Walker. Such subpena has already been issued, but I will see to it that it is reissued in an appropriate form to assure his appearance.

I would suggest that the subpena be issued for Monday next, or the earliest moment possible thereafter. And I would like to request the privilege of working with you and your staff so that we and our two staffs might appropriately see to it that this subpena is duly issued in an appropriate form, and Mr. Walker presents himself to respond to the proper inquiries of these two committees.

Mr. REUSS. I thank the gentleman and I join him in that expression. Before we do this, though, let me ask the representative of the Interior Department: Is it really necessary to go through this ridiculous performance? The Department of Interior does have a Secretary. Can't he order his assistant to cease his mendacity, get on a plane, and come out here and tell us the facts that we want to know?

STATEMENT OF JOHN KYL-Resumed

Mr. KYL. Well, sir, first, begging your indulgence, I cannot agree with all of the language you add, because I have no information. Mr. DINGELL. It appears to me, Mr. Kyl, that you are not even getting the truth from your subordinates out there.

Mr. KYL. The answer to your question is obviously yes; I am sure we can get Mr. Walker here to testify. I think certainly by Monday there would be a flight available for him.

Mr. DINGELL. You and I had a personal discussion about this yesterday.

Mr. KYL. That is correct.

Mr. DINGELL. And you had a personal discussion with Mr. Reuss, at which time it was agreed that you would make your best efforts to produce the other two gentlemen, Mr. Arnberger and Mr. Mortimore. You have indicated that because they were in California there was some difficulty in getting them back here and you were informed by me and by Mr. Reuss that we would be satisfied if you made your best efforts to produce them. We did advise you, however, that we did insist upon the presence of Mr. Walker.

Mr. KYL. Yes.

Mr. DINGELL. And you advised me, and I understand that you advised Mr. Reuss, that Mr. Walker would be here, subject to plane reservations.

Now, I must point out to you, we found this whole circumstance most curious. You were presented with a letter from these committees as a matter of fact a series of letters from both Mr. Reuss and me-indicating to you our concerns and that it was our intention, as the staff investigation proceeded, to see to it that witnesses from the Department did respond to questions and inquiries in appropriate public hearings by the two subcommittees. You did receive, I believe on the 18th, a letter advising you that we would anticipate receiving

testimony this morning-the letter being dated the 17th-of the individuals referred to in the comments by Mr. Reuss in his opening statement, and in the letters and correspondence from Mr. Reuss and me. Am I correct?

Mr. KYL. Your statement is correct so far as I know.

Mr. DINGELL. I am informed that a copy of the letter was sent to Mr. Walker, the Director of the Park Service, by the subcommittees, through the U.S. mails. Now, I am aware the U.S. mails do not move too well these days, but I am aware of the fact that our staff also hand delivered copies to Mr. Walker at his office. Am I correct?

Mr. KYL. I have to assume you are correct on that. I did not personally.

Mr. DINGELL. Well, perhaps

Mr. KYL. Did Mr. Walker have a copy of the letter?

STATEMENT OF RUSSELL E. DICKENSON-Resumed

Mr. DICKENSON. Yes, he did.

Mr. DINGELL. Come up here so that we can have the benefit of you right there at the microphone, sir.

Mr. Walker was then aware of this hearing, am I correct?

Mr. DICKENSON. Mr. Walker did see a copy of the incoming correspondence from the subcommittees.

Mr. DINGELL. What was Mr. Walker's advice?

Mr. DICKENSON. I did not discuss that with him.

Mr. DINGELL. He received information about the letter before he departed this part of the country; did he not?

Mr. DICKENSON. Well, Mr. Walker did have a copy of the letter, but I was not privy to his thinking, his discussions. I was simply instructed to appear today as the substitute witness.

Mr. DINGELL. Did you discuss the letter with Mr. Walker?

Mr. DICKENSON. No, sir.

Mr. DINGELL. You did not?

Mr. DICKENSON. No, sir.

Mr. DINGELL. Did you discuss the letter with Mr. Walker, Mr. Kyl? Mr. KYL. No. I have not spoken to Mr. Walker.

Mr. DINGELL. Well, you are an old friend and a former colleague, and I have great personal respect and affection for you, and this pains me greatly. As I indicated to you yesterday, you were not the one that I wanted to inquire of. You have no personal knowledge, as I understand it, of the serious questions that these subcommittees wish to direct to Mr. Walker.

Let me ask you this: You presented us with a copy of Mr. Walker's travel orders. These are most remarkable travel orders. They are dated July 1. 1974, and they expire June 30, 1975. Under "purpose and remarks" it says, "to conduct official business within the scope of your duties and responsibilities." Then it says:

Per diem allowance: in the conterminous United States the maximum provided by the law and regulations: in Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands, the maximum provided in bulletins issued by the Office of the Secretary of Defense. Actual Subsistence: when necessary not to exceed $40 per day in conterminous United States. In Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands, the maximum provided in bulletins issued by the Office of the Secretary of Defense plus $18.

Travel is authorized by common carrier, privately owned automobile, extra fare excess baggage, Government owned conveyance, privately owned automobile at a mileage rate of 12 cents subject by administrative determination to be to the advantage of the Govern

ment.

What were the purposes of Mr. Walker's trip to Denver, if you might advise me, please?

[The travel authorization and related departmental manual re such authorizations follow:]

You are authorized to travel as indicated below and to incur necessary expenses in accordance with applicable laws and regulations.

8. FROM: Washington, D.C.

9. TO:

PLACES OF TRAVEL

Such points in the conterminous United States, Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico,
and the Virgin Islands as necessary and return to your official station.

10. PURPOSE AND REMARKS:

To conduct official business within the scope of your duties and
responsibilities.

11. PER DIEM ALLOWANCE: In the conterminous United States the maximum provided by law and regulations; in Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands, the maximum provided in bulletins issued by the Office of Secretary of Defense. ACTUAL SUBSISTENCE: when necessary not to exceed $40 per day in conterminous United States. In Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands, the maximum provided in bulletins issued by the Office of the Secy. of $18. Itemization on a daily basist must be reflected on voucher. Lodging 12. PERIOD OF TRAVEL: Beginning on or about Ending on or about

ense

14.

July 1, 1974
MODE OF TRAVEL
Extra fare Excessbaggage 15.

June 30, 1975

Government-owned conveyance

1.Privately owned automobile

at a mileage rate of 12 cents, subject to: Administratively determined to be to the advantage of the Government

13. Common carrier

(a)

(b)

17.

(c)

A showing of advantage to the Government

Not to exceed cost by common carrier, including consideration of Per Diem allowance

Transportation immediate family

MISCELLANEOUS

19. Shipment household goods and personal effects

18. Other (specify) You are authorized to use a combination of air, rail, and bus transportation and first class airplane accommodations when necessary; to engage accommodations at a hotel or otherwise to transact official business; to hire special conveyance.

DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR-DEPARTMENT MANUAL

PART 347 TRAVEL AND TRANSPORTATION OF EMPLOYEES

Financial Administration, Chapter 2-Travel Authorizations, 347.2.1

1. Travel Authorization Form. Travel Authorization Form DI-1020 shall be used by all bureaus and offices to authorize official individual employee travel unless a specific exemption is obtained for use of an alternate type form from the Office of Budget, Office of Assistant Secretary-Management and Budget. This form is used to request approval of specific, area, and general travel (see 205 DM 15.2-General Delegations-Travel Authorizations). A blanket authorization where numerous travelers are traveling to the same destination or under similar conditions within a specified area and all conditions of travel are the same can be provided for on the DI-1020 form by inserting on the form in the space for "name of traveler" and "title" the phrase "See Attached List." The form and list shall be reproduced in the required number of copies, including one copy for each traveler.

2. Types of Travel Authorizations. There are three types of travel authorizations prescribed for use in the Department. These authorizations are described in the following paragraphs.

A. Specific Trip Authorization. This authorization covers travel to specific cities, towns, or geographical points or areas and return to the traveler's headquarters or other specific point or temporary duty station.

B. Area Authorization. This authorization covers travel within a specified area as may be necessary, such as the boundary of a certain geographical region of a bureau, a national park, or such points within a specified State or States. This authorization may be used to cover travel of employees whose duties require prompt action and the exercise of individual discretion in the event of an emergency, frequent travel on short notice within a specified area, or where the nature of the employees' duties makes it impracticable to issue them specific travel authorizations.

C. General Authorization. This authorization covers travel throughout the United States, its territorial possessions, and the Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands as may be necessary during the fiscal year in which the authorization is issued without designation as to specific points or geographical areas to be visited. This authorization may be issued to officials whose duties require frequent or more or less continuous travel, travel which is performed within the discretion of the official performing the travel, and those administrators whose duties are of a nature which make it impracticable to issue them area or specific trip authorizations (see 205 DM 15.2B).

Mr. KYL. As I understand it, Mr. Dingell, the purpose was to discuss with officials of the Park Service in the Denver area, and with the individual whose name has been forwarded as a replacement for him, the interim plans, the plans for transition of the Park Service directorship and other matters pertaining thereto.

Mr. DINGELL. Well, I think you ought to tell us in full detail the purposes of this trip. Where is the individual who is to be Mr. Walker's successor? Where does he live?

Mr. DICKENSON. This has not been announced by the Secretary yet, and I don't know whether I should take the privilege.

Mr. DINGELL. Does he live in Denver?

Mr. DICKENSON. No, sir.

Mr. DINGELL. He does not?

Mr. DICKENSON. NO.

Mr. DINGELL. Is he in Denver at this time?

Mr. KYL. He is physically located, lives, and works in the Rocky Mountain area, but not in Denver.

Mr. DINGELL. But not in Denver?

Mr. KYL. That's correct.

Mr. DINGELL. Was he in Denver yesterday?

Mr. DICKENSON. Yes, sir.