Mr. PONDER. Yes; that is a problem. Again, I think we have to make a distinction between the local violator and the major drug dealer. Throughout our State, if we find that a person is arrested for pushing drugs, whether they be pills, marihuana, whatever, whether this case goes before the courts or not, is left up entirely with the local authorities, the district attorney, the superior court judge, or even the local law enforcement agency making the arrest.

We feel that there is a difference in the way these cases are handled through the State. In contrast to those types of cases, we feel that in the major cases there is a much harder attitude in dealing with those individuals. May I read a letter that I just received?

Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir.

Mr. PONDER. This letter is written to a sheriff. It says:

My 16-year-old son came home from high school yesterday acting incoherent. Upon returning to his normal self, I discovered he had taken two Quaaludes. The pills were bought during lunch for $6 and available to anyone with money. I was in disbelief to find out marihuana is also readily available and is smoked by students, at lunch and breaks, in the school parking lots. Each morning before school, students smoke marihuana out on the road by a certain plant. It is apparent that the drug problem is out of hand at this high school. Therefore, I am also sending a copy of this letter to Mr. Beverly Ponder, Director of GBI in an attempt to get an informer in school to put an end to this pushing of drugs. I know that as a citizen, I can count on your cooperation.

So this is a request we refer to as a local case. This letter was signed, "A concerned parent." If the individual who is pushing drugs in this particular school is a juvenile, of course, he would be handled in connection with juvenile procedures here in the State. If it happens to be someone who is older, it could be handled by the GBI or the local sheriff.

But whether or not this individual is going to get fined for selling one drug or drugs on two or three different occasions; whether he is going to get put in jail; or whether he is going to get a stern lecture, depends entirely on the conditions in that area. And there is very little uniformity throughout the State in that regard.

Mr. EVANS. In your opinion, do the major cases that your agency makes, and the Drug Enforcement Administration, and other cases of great magnitude get adequately prosecuted in the State of Georgia? Mr. PONDER. I believe we can say they are handled adequately in the courts, while I do not agree with how the case may have been disposed of.

Mr. EVANS. You mean so far as the amount of sentence?

Mr. PONDER. Sentence or fine. You know, there are two sides to the picture. Whether or not 10 defendants can enter pleas for fines and probation is sometimes determined by how much it would cost a rural county in Georgia to prosecute those 10 defendants. You know, this is a situation that has to be evaluated at the local level. And so I can't condemn a county who will tell a smuggler, "OK, we will take this airplane, and you don't ever come back to the State of Georgia,' versus putting the guy in jail-plus all the people that were working with him in this particular case.

Mr. EVANS. Well, of course, I think the purpose of this committee is not to condemn anyone, but to see if there is any way that we can find ways to improve the efforts and also to offer in the event that we

do come up by putting all the information together-some constructive criticism and suggestions. I think that would be our purpose rather than to condemn any agency or any local officials either.

I am wondering about the bail situation where you have repeated offenders. Do you think the bail laws that we have in the State of Georgia are adequate, or the treatment of these? Here again, I know that there are differences in localities.

Mr. PONDER. Right.

Mr. EVANS. But generally speaking, is there any effort being made through the judicial council or other councils to provide for adequate bail to prevent a continuous violation-while a person is waiting for trial on one offense he's out paying his lawyer with money he made off a second or third or fourth offense?

Mr. PONDER. Well, this, again, is a situation where, as you pointed out, it does differ from locale to locale. But we know of cases in which the bail was set very low, and the individual continued his drug smuggling activities or drug trafficking activities while on bail.

I believe that the prosecutors through conferences at the District Attorney's Association level and superior court judges through their conferences are aware of this problem. And I am hopeful that bail procedures can be improved, particularly with regard to drug cases.

Mr. EVANS. Mr. Ponder, you pointed out at the beginning of your remarks that Governor Busbee had asked for substantial legislation dealing with the drug field. I know you have got about 4 or 5 more days of legislative sessions, having spent 8 years there myself. What is the status of this legislation? And what are the chances of it passing?

Mr. PONDER. The legislation making marihuana trafficking a case for which we can seek a wiretap warrant has been passed by both houses and just awaits the Governor's signature. I am not aware of just where the mandatory sentencing bill stands this morning. And the other bill that I alluded to passed both houses, but I am not sure if there was an amendment tacked onto it or not. I am not sure about that.

Mr. EVANS. So you feel there is a chance that all of this legislation could be passed this session?

Mr. PONDER. Yes. The Governor's legislative package contains several other bills to improve our criminal justice system, but today I only mentioned specifically the ones that zeroed in on drugs. I believe that most of the entire package will pass.

Of course, one bill that is not related to much to drugs, the gun control bill, did not pass. We know that. There are problems that did issue this year in gun control.

Mr. WOLFF. Would the chairman yield?

Mr. EVANS. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. WOLFF. In the legislative package in the past, has decriminalization ever been considered? Is it being considered? Or legalization of marihuana?

Mr. PONDER. Decriminalization has been discussed and never approached very seriously. This year, we did have a bill passed that has already been signed by the Governor making marihuana available in connection with illnesses. And I believe it is called the Controlled Substances Therapeutic Research Act. It has just passed the general assembly. And the Governor has signed this bill pointing out that

he reviewed it carefully and found the controls adequate from the law-enforcement standpoint. And so this is the first time we have had anything like this in the State.

Mr. WOLFF. It is marihuana for therapeutic purposes?

Mr. PONDER. Yes.

Mr. WOLFF. Or any other drug?

Mr. PONDER. Just marihuana.

Mr. WOLFF. How do you get the supplies of that for therapeutic purposes?

Mr. PONDER. Marihuana will be obtained from the National Institute on Drug Abuse in Washington, D.C. And it will be sent to Georgia to a predetermined certified pharmacy. This law sets up a board to administer this particular act and the board will go ahead and certify the pharmacy that will distribute it and also be responsible for getting it from Washington.

Mr. WOLFF. Mr. Chairman, if I may follow up just for one

moment

Mr. EVANS. Sure.

Mr. WOLFF. There are some people who indicate if we legalize or decriminalize marihuana, we would take the profit out of this. I am not saying this is my view; I am just playing the role of devil's advocate here. And I think we would like to get your comment on how you would approach this as someone in the law enforcement field. How would you feel about the question of decriminalization or legalization? Mr. PONDER. I am against it. Now, you might say, "Well, Mr. Ponder, you are spending a lot of State money, a lot of Federal money, and you have admitted in your statement that you are not winning the battle. So how do you justify your position?"

Well, I do that by simply saying that I think we ought not to make it easy for youngsters to get marihuana or any other type drug that is injurious to themselves. And I find that one of the things that we have in this State, and probably nationwide, is apathy. I feel that we have not indoctrinated our youth as to the extent of the damage that can result from the use of drugs.

There has been a lot of publicity on PCP and so forth. But we had a case right here in this particular locality that will, I think, point up the point that I am making. I read now from an editorial in a Macon paper. It says:

Congratulations to the Georgia Bureau of Investigation for the two pot hauls it has made during the past 2 months. The Bureau spent untold man-hours and resources on making the two raids and came up with nearly 75 tons of pot and 20 suspected smugglers. But we have a question. Couldn't all these man-hours and resources be better spent in dealing with crime that hurts society more? Marihuana is not going to kill or maim anyone, not even 75 tons of it. The GBI, of course, is only doing its job. It is trying to keep people from making money from something that is illegal.

Because it is illegal, the black market is the only market for thousands of Georgians who smoke pot. Marihuana importing is an extraordinarily lucrative enterprise. Criminals spend millions to protect their routes, and lawmen spend millions to crack them. It seems like a huge waste of resources over a weed that will grow almost anywhere and is probably less harmful than a couple of martinis.

Now, it may be so that a lot of young people don't read editorials, but I think the point I am making here is that parents read editorials,

and they find that this is a popular attitude that, hey, there is nothing wrong with smoking pot. Then, we are going to have more difficulty in the future.

Mr. WOLFF. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. EVANS. That brings up another question, Mr. Ponder. But at this time, I would like Mr. Colombell to have the opportunity to ask any questions that you would like to ask, if there are any.

Mr. COLOMBELL. Congressman, I don't have any questions. I appreciate the opportunity.

Mr. EVANS. OK. Fine.

I do want to ask you this, in the field of marihuana, of course, I think we have to say that the jury is still out from the standpoint of the type of proof positive that the Federal Government requires before it will ban or issue the health warnings the way they were finally issued on cigarettes or tobacco smoking.

I know that the whole scheme of marihuana usage is probably less than 20 years old and that it took a number of years, probably much more than that, to ever get to a point where the Surgeon General issued a warning. But there is increasing evidence from various scientific research sources that indicate that there are a number of health problems affiliated with marihuana and drug abuse.

Your point is well taken about the attitude of the press and media in some instances about marihuana usage. And I think that you have made a very valid point of the kind of influence this has on the parents who determine that this is not a harmful thing or it is a childish thing, some phase that kids are going through, and it won't provide any harm to them.

I know, of course, the attitude of a number of people who support decriminalization and legalization of marihuana on the basis that if it is harmful, it is only harmful to the user and that it doesn't harm society. Is it your opinion that any of these arguments are valid, given the number of deaths we have from marihuana-related driving incidents and other things that occur under the influence of drugs?

Mr. PONDER. I think the arguments for decriminalization are just not valid. We see too many instances where young people's lives are affected in more ways than one. And you have just mentioned several of the important ones-the deaths caused by automobile accidents.

I would have no objection to saying that a 30-year-old person ought to be able to use anything he wants, whether it is marihuana, martinis, Quaaludes, or whatever, but I don't think we ought to give that opportunity to youngsters.

Mr. EVANS. Well, I am sure we could go on and on and on talking about this very serious problem. And I am much aware of your concern about it. But I guess we have imposed upon your time long enough. Mr. COUGHLIN. Mr. Chairman, could I just ask two very brief additional questions?

Mr. EVANS. Sure. I am not rushing you.

Mr. COUGHLIN. One, you indicated that in your work, it appeared a great deal of the supply was coming in by aircraft. In your knowledge and experience, where are these aircraft apparently coming from? Mr. PONDER. Colombia.

Mr. COUGHLIN. Directly?

Mr. PONDER. Yes, sir.

Mr. COUGHLIN. And second, on an unrelated question, but an important one, we talked about diversion of illegal chemical compounds. How about laboratories producing, illegal laboratories producing, illegal chemical compounds? Have you discovered those in your experience here?

Mr. PONDER. Yes, sir, we have.

Mr. COUGHLIN. Do you have any feel for what areas the illegal chemical compounds come from, diversion, compared to illegal laboratories?

Mr. PONDER. We have seen two things here: the local laboratories that we have helped, along with DEA, in locating and destroying and also the importation of huge volumes of Quaaludes. That seems to be a very popular drug and very easy to transport in contrast to marihuana. And these are also coming in from South America.

Mr. COUGHLIN. Do you think more is imported than produced locally or diverted?

Mr. PONDER. We see large volumes being imported.

Mr. WOLFF. Would the gentleman yield at that point?

Mr. COUGHLIN. Yes.

Mr. WOLFF. Those Quaaludes, are they manufactured here, go down to Colombia, and then come back here?

Mr. PONDER. Most of them are manufactured there.

Mr. WOLFF. Manufactured down there?

Mr. PONDER. Yes; and in fact, we have had some indication some of them are being manufactured in Mexico.

Mr. WOLFF. We have, in the past, had an oversupply of some of the substances that go down, the basic substances; the precursors, and the like, are shipped down to Latin America, and then they come back to us illegally in the form of these substances you are speaking of. Mr. COUGHLIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. EVANS. OK.

Mr. WOLFF. I just would like to make one further comment.

Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOLFF. You know, Mr. Ponder, the statement that has been made by the chairman of this panel and yourself with relation to comments that have been made relative to marihuana and the so-called soft drugs-marihuana and cocaine, particularly.

One aspect of this that really is never addressed by those who want to promote the idea of the freedom to use these substances is the fact that basically, it is a copout. It is a copout in failing to look at the various social problems we face in this Nation. And on both accounts, it is not only failure to address the problems, but face up to the realities of the problems.

Unless we do face up to the realities, the very basic social problems that face this Nation, we are not going to find the answer to the drugs. Mr. PONDER. I agree with that.

Mr. WOLFF. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. EVANS. Thank you, Mr. Ponder and Mr. McGreevy. We appreciate very much your contribution to these hearings.

And I assume you will be back later?

Mr. MCGREEVY. After lunch, sir.