maybe the local man wants the thunder, maybe the State man wants to get the recognition, maybe the Federal do. But we are in this thing together. So if we are working on a drug case, let's all work on it together. And if there is a release or news release, let it be a coordinated effort.

I think this causes a lot of our problems sometimes.

Mr. EVANS. Sheriff, I have seen the kind of cooperation that is provided from three distinct counties in the instance that you three sheriffs have. And I know there has been an unselfish cooperation there.

Do you have any specific recent incidences that you would feel like exemplified there is not that kind of cooperation on the part of either the State or Federal agency?

Sheriff TALTON. I don't have any specific reason, but I hear the sheriffs over the State talking and things like this. And I think a lot of people in law enforcement, the local level-I believe in home rule. I think the Federal Government might be getting too involved in a lot of our society and our decisions. But I feel like that if we request help from a Federal or State level, that they should come in, and we should pool our information.

They have more available sources of various equipment, what not, that can be used in cases like this. And I feel by coordinated effort, everyone working together, we can bring this under control.

Now, I can't specifically say of any particular instance, but I hear talk, you know.

Mr. EVANS. Mr. Coughlin, do you have some other questions? Mr. COUGHLIN. Let me just follow up on that a minute, because I tried to do this earlier. You say when we request help, and I am trying to find out what specific kind of help you request.

Sheriff TALTON. As far as I am concerned, undercover work, we need undercover agents.

Mr. COUGHLIN. That is agents?

Sheriff TALTON. Right.

Mr. COUGHLIN. So we talked about surveillance data, and we talked about agents. Any other specific kind of help you request?

Sheriff TALTON. I can't think of anything right now.

Mr. COUGHLIN. I guess someone mentioned funds for

Sheriff WILKES. Buy money at times when you have something. It looks like it is going to be over your head, it looks like it is going to be something that is going to require more expenditures and is going to require any interstate travel, you lose your local official right there. He has got to tie in with DEA if he is going to be successful in his

venture.

Mr. EVANS. What is the situation with the GBI, Ray?

Sheriff WILKES. GBI may be limited, too, especially-and we have tied in with DEA in some operations in Florida and some in California, but GBI gets limited very quickly, too, because once that State line becomes there

Mr. EVANS. What about within the restraint of their limits, what has been your experience with them? Are you able to get a quick response?

Sheriff WILKES. My experience has been good basically. We have had very few things that happen that was not good.

Mr. EVANS. Has it been better than DEA?

Sheriff WILKES. It has been better than DEA, unquestionably better. Mr. EVANS. You had some other questions?

Mr. COUGHLIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Sheriff, you mentioned, I think, prior approval for operations for a problem with DEA. Can you explain what you mean on that? How does it work?

Sheriff WILKES. You know, if you walked in my office and asked me to do something or asked me could I do something, I could tell you yes or no. And it wouldn't take me, but that long [snapping fingers] basically. But it doesn't seem with the structure of DEA and I can understand why, because of the overlapping, it may be, or concurring investigations or other, but it seems like the bureaucracy of the Federal Government comes into the scene then. And you begin to bog down in getting approval.

And I am sure it passes from one desk to another maybe to see if this conflicts with any running investigation. I am only surmising, but it does have a delay.

Mr. COUGHLIN. So this occurs when you go to DEA and say, "I want help, can you help me in an investigation of an particular"

Sheriff WILKES. Yes; but you have to tell them everything you know to start with. And then sometimes in the ultimate end of it, they say no. You have been waiting on prior approval, you have been waiting for them to concur and come in with you, and your case is falling apart all the time the delay is going.

I think Major Singleton who is in the back will be able to clear much of this up. And I really would like for him to.

Mr. COUGHLIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. EVANS. Let me touch on one other point, and then to stay on schedule, we will need to conclude for this morning. But you mentioned that when somebody can bring $60 million worth of cocaine into this country, it is very, very difficult to keep them in jail. Are you talking about the fact that the bond or bail is not sufficient?

Sheriff WILKES. No; what I really was saying is the people who come in with Federal prisoners, while they were in our jail, we had to take and change our whole structure of custodial officers because of our personal fears that anyone who could control $60 million worth of cocaine could conceivably shoot their way out of my own jail. Mr. EVANS. I see, Do you have any

Sheriff WILKES. So we change it. We beefed up; we put people in there that would meet any of these things that may come up. So when I say it is difficult, they are different than any other type because they represent an organization. They represent a structure. And when I stop that organization, I cut a lot of people's payroll off.

Mr. EVANS. I see. Do you have difficulty with inadequate bail being posted in repeat offenders?

Sheriff WILKES. In this particular case?

Mr. EVANS. I know that Cary Bittick doesn't have that trouble if the judge gets it.

Sheriff WILKES. No; I would say that is not a problem even from Federal and State. Our Federal judge here does a super job on organized crime and racketeers of setting bonds that helps hold these people in. We don't have the problem.

Mr. EVANS. Do you have trouble with a lot of backlog in the courts and a lot of cases being dismissed as a result of backlogs?

Sheriff WILKES. No.

Mr. EVANS. Do you?

Sheriff BITTICK. I didn't count the number of drug cases before I came down here, but I know a couple of years ago they placed on the Federal docket something like 500 cases at one time in my county. And 500 cases in my county, you are talking about 5 years' work. Mr. EVANS. What about you?

Sheriff TALTON. We don't have a background of drug; we have a lot of plea bargaining going on in drug cases.

Mr. EVANS. Do you feel like there is being adequate justice done in the drug area?

Sheriff TALTON. In some cases, I don't feel so. I don't think there is. Mr. EVANS. OK, gentlemen, I appreciate very much your testimony. You have contributed greatly to our gathering process. And I hope you will be able to come up with some answers and to at least institute some legislation that will help you with the job. Thank you. Sheriff WILKES. Thank you.

Mr. EVANS. I think at this time, we will recess until 1:15. We will be back then and start the hearings promptly at 1:15.

[Whereupon, at 12:10 p.m., the hearing was adjourned, to reconvene at 1:15 p.m., the same day.]

AFTERNOON SESSION

Mr. EVANS. I would like to proceed with the afternoon session. We have as our next panel Maj. Terry Singleton of the Macon/Bibb County Narcotics Unit and Mr. Thomas McGreevy, director of the investigative division of GBI.

Would you gentlemen raise your right hand? I understand Mr. McGreevy has already been sworn, but we will do it again.

[Major Singleton and Mr. McGreevy were sworn by Mr. Evans.] Mr. EVANS. All right; at this time, we will ask you to make any statement for the record you wish to make. If you have additional information it can be submitted without objection for the record.

I might point out that Chief Deputy Parkinson of Dodge County was supposed to be here, but he is tied up in court and cannot be here. And this is one of the problems that law enforcement officers routinely have, which I understand.

At this time, Terry, if you would proceed with your statement, if you have one.

TESTIMONY OF MAJ. TERRY SINGLETON, MACON/BIBB COUNTY NARCOTICS UNIT, AND THOMAS MCGREEVY, DIRECTOR, INVESTIGATIVE DIVISION, GEORGIA BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION Major SINGLETON. I don't have any opening statement, other than the fact that I would like everyone here to know that the unit I represent is a city/county unit, Chief Lynch and Sheriff Wilkes, both. So I am representing both of those.

Mr. EVANS. Mr. McGreevy, do you have any statement?

Mr. MCGREEVY. Only to repeat what Mr. Ponder said in his opening remarks, that we are very glad to have the committee in Georgia, and that any cooperation that we can furnish, we would be glad to do so now or after the committee leaves the State. And we believe that nothing but good can come out of these hearings. And we applaud you for coming to the State.

Mr. EVANS. Thank you.

Since we don't have any formal statement, if Larry will permit me, I think I will start the questioning.

The formation of your city/county drug unit was how long ago? Major SINGLETON. October 1975.

Mr. EVANS. And you have been operating for approximately 4 to 42 years?

Major SINGLETON. Yes, sir.

Mr. EVANS. What has been the traffic scene of illicit narcotics in the middle Georgia area since the formation of your unit? What has been the pattern? Have you seen a decrease, increase, or what has been the situation?

Major SINGLETON. There has been a decrease in suppliers using our area. When we first started, there were several people that were bringing drugs in on a regular basis; one that is document we convicted, coming in out of Tokyo and Hong Kong into this area.

Before this unit was organized, we were only able really to hit street dealers. There was no effort really between the city and the county joining together and doing a job that really needed to be done on the bigtime dealers.

Mr. EVANS. How many people do you actually have in your unit? Major SINGLETON. At this time, we have six investigators. The undercover agents vary. We keep a couple of those at all times, but they may go up at times.

Mr. EVANS. You are able to call on the rest of the law enforcement in the area to assist; is that correct?

Major SINGLETON. Yes, sir.

Mr. EVANS. And yours is primarily an investigative function? Major SINGLETON. Yes, sir. We handle drugs, vice, and intelligence. Mr. EVANS. I see. There have been several large busts in this area in the past year or two. Has your unit been involved in any or all of those?

Major SINGLETON. Yes, sir. I think since we started, thinking back, we do about one good-sized bust a year. We started off with the guy I was telling you about out of Hong Kong/Tokyo. He was editor of the Rolling Stone magazine there. They have a contact in New York and one in Los Angeles where they were importing morphine, spreading it all over the United States. We were able to get a conviction on him.

Mr. EVANS. What is the situation so far as marihuana and cocaine coming out of Colombia and other South American countries?

Major SINGLETON. Marihuana, there is a lot of it. Cocaine here. moderate, I guess, with the rest of the State.

Mr. EVANS. How much marihuana are you dealing with locally? Major SINGLETON. It varies on the availability, really, of the good stuff coming out of Colombia. When we get it tightened up, we have

seen half of the marihuana here homegrown that we were really getting at. Quaaludes is the thing, really, right now coming out of Colombia.

Mr. EVANS. Those are manufactured in Colombia or in South America?

Major SINGLETON. We think so.

Mr. EVANS. They are not manufactured here?

Major SINGLETON. No.

Mr. EVANS. If you have any problems in particular with other agencies such as GBI, what is the relationship between the GBI and Bibb County Sheriff's Department and your drug unit and the DEA? Major SINGLETON. Well, with the GBI, we have very little contact. The contact we do have has always been good.

Mr. EVANS. What is the reason you don't have any more contact— they don't have the resources?

Major SINGLETON. The resources they have, I think they are short handed.

Mr. EVANS. They are about as limited as you are, then?
Major SINGLETON. Yes, sir.

Mr. EVANS. So you look to the Federal DEA to assist in things like front money or purchase money or whatever? Do you do any of that? Major SINGLETON. We have tried, but our efforts have been nothing. Mr. EVANS. What do you use DEA for? Are you able to utilize anything with DEA? Are they of any assistance to local law enforcement, in your opinion?

Major SINGLETON. No, sir. In my opinion, they are not. I will have to give examples.

It is easy to sit on the outside of any organization and criticize the inside. I don't know why it is. But when we first organized our unit, we contacted them and told them we had this fellow from Tokyo, told them how the setup was, importing morphine; that we had confiscated morphine, made arrests, we had gotten into the organization, we were talking to the people in Tokyo. He was going to bring more drugs into us himself. We owed him $10,000. We needed just front money and some assistance in getting to Los Angeles to meet him. They were not able to come up with $10,000.

Mr. EVANS. How long did it take you to get an answer to that? Major SINGLETON. A couple of weeks, I'd say. It has been a good while back, but I'd say a couple of weeks we tried to get it set up. The street agents that we talked to were anxious to help us. Mr. EVANS. You mean the street agents of DEA?

Major SINGLETON. The street agents were real anxious to help us. Mr. EVANS. So what we are talking about is the decisionmaking. Major SINGLETON. They called. I sat with them when they would make phone calls to Atlanta to tell them what we got, what we need. And they would never get an answer then. But when they would come back down to our unit, they would say, "Nothing we can do about it."

They did send one agent out with us to go along with us. They did contact the Los Angeles unit of the DEA. That was at the airport; they met us. And they were a great help to us.

But our man had to act as the undercover agent. We had to put up the money, front money. We had to pay the motel bills. And in making