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Now, with those preliminary statements, may I pass to the bill? The CHAIRMAN. You are using, as I see, the first committee print, April 26, 1935.

Mr. CAMPBELL. Well, you see, Mr. Chairman, up to the time that we arrived in Washington, yesterday morning, we had never seen Print No. 2.

The CHAIRMAN. I know that; but I just wanted to be clear that you were using this committee print, just so the members of the committee might have the proper print before them.

Mr. CAMPBELL. My committee print does not seem to be numbered.

The CHAIRMAN. There was an original and then there were two committee prints; and what you have given me here, as marked up, is the committee print dated April 26, 1935.

Mr. HUFF. Mr. Chairman, if I may say this, the Senate had a committee print, and I understood that you were having a committee print made to conform to that particular one. Your print bore the date of the 26th but it was the same as the Senate committee print of the 25th.

The CHAIRMAN. All in the world this is printed for is to have the committee members to take the committee print, at the head of which is April 26, 1935. If anyone has not a copy of that print, the clerk will supply them.

Mr. CAMPBELL. If I am too prolix in my statements will you check me?

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.

Mr. CAMPBELL. Some of these sections I shall have to read, in order to pick up the sense, so as to carry you along in the discussion. In section 1 you will see that it starts by stating:

It is necessary for the national defense and development of its foreign and domestic commerce that the United States shall have a merchant marine (1) sufficient to carry at least one-half of the foreign commerce of the United States and to provide

We should like to insert there the words "foreign and domestic", so it will read:

provide foreign and domestic shipping services essential for maintaining the flow of national commerce at all times, and, preferentially, so far as practicable, of all the United States mails to foreign countries.

In other words, we want to emphasize the domestic shipping features, for the reasons I have told you, and we think there ought to be a statement declaring for the carrying of foreign mail in American ships.

Mr. HART. Why do you strike out the words "on all routes"? Mr. CAMPBELL. Because "services essential" cover the same thing. Mr. HART. Well, it might be a question of your differing as to what route should be determined to make services essential.

Mr. CAMPBELL. Well, I think, Mr. Congressman, that throughout this bill the words "services, routes, lines" seem to be used synonymously. I have no objection if you want to say "services on all routes."

Mr. HART. I just wanted to get your idea.

Mr. CAMPBELL. It is just a matter of phrasing. In the enactment of the 1920 Shipping Act, in section 7, the term "essential services" was written in, and the Board was authorized to provide for essential

services with this fleet built during the war.

And so the term " essential services" has come to be a sort of trade name in the shipping world, meaning those routes which have been established.

Mr. LEHLBACH. The words "on all routes" would be restrictive in their sense, rather than broadening, as they are used.

I rather agree that it might be well to have them say that it was "to provide foreign and domestic shipping services essential." To provide "shipping services on all routes" would be everywhere, at any time.

Mr. CAMPBELL. That would even include tramping.

Mr. LEHLBACH. That is why I say the words "on all routes" are restrictive here.

Mr. CAMPBELL. Yes, sir. It is susceptible to that broader interpretation, if you put that upon it.

There are some American tramp ships. For instance, take the tankers, which are probably the most valuable of all naval auxiliaries we have, according to the statement made before the committee yesterday, they cannot be said to operate on routes.

Mr. HART. I do not want to be argumentative on it. I simply wanted to get your reason for the elimination of those words.

Mr. CAMPBELL. Now, to pick up the thought, it is necessary that we have this merchant marine "sufficient to carry at least one-half the foreign commerce", and so forth, and [reading]:

capable of serving as a naval and military auxiliary in time of war or national emergency, owned and operated under the United States flag by citizens of the United States and so operated and regulated as to secure to the shipper of American products adequate service.

And at that point the bill reads "and parity of rates to foreign markets." We would like to have that changed to read "and equitable rates." It seemed to us the language was a little narrow. The CHAIRMAN. Page 1, line 13, of the mimeographed copy-you are using the mimeographed copy?

Mr. CAMPBELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SIROVICH. When you have the language underlined, is that a new thing?

Mr. CAMPBELL. The matter underscored is new matter which we are suggesting, and we have drawn a line through that which we suggest be deleted.

On page 2 we should like to amend the declaration appearing in lines 1 to 9:

It is hereby declared to be the policy of the United States to foster the development and encourage the maintenance of such a merchant marine by the means hereafter expressly provided in this Act and by any other means which the Congress from time to time may deem necessary. Insofar as not inconsistent with the express provisions of this Act, the agencies of the United States Government charged with the administration of this Act and shipping laws shall, in such administration and in the making of rules and regulations, keep always in view the purpose and object of the policies herein expressed as the primary end to be attained.

We suggest striking the matter which begins in line 3 [reading]: by the means hereafter expressly provided in this Act and by any other means which the Congress from time to time may deem necessary. Insofar as not inconsistent with the express provisions of this Act

And add the word "and" at that point.

Now, that suggested change is made for the purpose of having Congress mandate the administrative agencies of the Government to keep this purpose and object, declared in this section, always in view; and with the words which are deleted we think that is somewhat emphasized.

The CHAIRMAN. What is that you think is emphasized?

Mr. CAMPBELL (reading):

It is hereby declared to be the policy of the United States.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you think that the deletion of those words strengthens that objective?

Mr. CAMPBELL. Yes; we do. Consider what we have deleted [reading]:

by the means hereafter expressly provided in this Act and by any other means which the Congress from time to time may deem necessary. Insofar as not inconsistent with the express provisions of this Act

The CHAIRMAN. The thought was to serve notice, by that language, to foreign nations that it was the intent of America to maintain a merchant marine by any legal means possible, in the hope that we would have to avoid having too much expense.

Mr. CAMPBELL. Well, our purpose is simply to have these agencies of the Government mandated to keep this purpose and object in view. Now, title II, section 201, which sets up the United States Maritime Authority, we approve.

On page 3 we suggest, in paragraph (b), line 3, a slight change in the language relating to the qualification of the members, which reads:

No member shall be appointed who is in the employ of, or holds any official relation to, any common carrier.

We think that should be changed to read:

No member at the time of his appointment shall be in the employ of, or hold any official relation to, any carrier

And not restrict that just to common carriers, because all the oil tankers, for example, are not common carriers. There are many other bulk carriers which are not common carriers, tramp vessels and things like that.

Mr. WEARIN. Would it not be better to insert a limitation of the time, say that he had not been associated with such company for 3 years or 5 years, or something like that?

Mr. CAMPBELL. Well, I should think that you could leave that to the discretion of the President in making the appointments.

Of course, I may say to you now, that in the view of the shipping industry, the success of this act is going to be largely dependent upon the strength and character of this Maritime Authority. You have got to have the best experience and the highest type of men that you can have on this Maritime Authority to carry out its purposes, if you are to carry out the objective successfully; and we think that no one, at the time of his appointment, should be in the employ of or hold any official relation to any carrier by water or other person subject to this act. If you are going to go back 1, 2, or 3 years, it could well be left to the discretion of the President of the United States, because the appointment would have to be confirmed by the Senate.

Mr. WEARIN. Would you suggest a shorter period?

Mr. CAMPBELL. You may have. I do not know whether 1 year or 2 years. In fact, not knowing whether or not the President would ever appoint anyone that has ever been associated with any shipping company he might go entirely outside the shipping world, and I presume that he will, in a large measure.

The CHAIRMAN. In fact, if he could get a properly qualified man, it might be better for him to go entirely outside?

Mr. CAMAPELL. Certainly.

The CHAIRMAN. And get a man of ability and standing.

It was thought here, in creating the Maritime Authority, that it would be a great deal better to provide, as we have, rather than to leave it in the hands of Cabinet officers, when we know that all the work will be done by clerks. We felt it better to have men who are charged with responsibility and are answerable to the people. Mr. CAMPBELL. Please do not mistake me. I do not want anything written into this bill that assures the appointment of any man to the Maritime Authority. What we want is the best men for the job.

Mr. SIROVICH. Could you not leave that to the judgment of the United States Senate, that has got to confirm him anyway?

Mr. CAMPBELL. I am willing to.

Mr. HART. How does the elimination of the last three words and the substitution of the Inaguage you suggested change substantially the meaning of that section?

Mr. CAMPBELL. Mr. Congressman, I do not think that it makes any difference.

Mr. HART. Well, you must have had some reason for inserting it. Mr. CAMPBELL. When you have a large group of men, such as you have in an association of this character, and you are trying to reconcile some of these views, and some man comes along and says, "I think these words are better than those words."

Mr. HART. Then it is a concession to private vanity?

Mr. CAMPBELL. It is a concession to somebody, for the sake of harmony. I do not care what you do about that, except I do suggest that the word "common" should be deleted from "common carrier." The CHAIRMAN. It ought not to be limited to common carriers; it should be any carrier?

Mr. CAMPBELL. Exactly. And the same change is suggested in line 9, page 3, delete the word "common."

We approve the rest of those paragraphs, appearing on that page, and the paragraphs on page 4 down to section 202.

In section 202, subsection 2, line 26, it is desired to have after the word "benefits" the words "if any" inserted. The paragraph now

reads:

(2) To analyze and edit pertinent data and develop plans for construction and efficient operation of vessels, taking into consideration the benefits accruing from standardized production where practicable.

We do not want to concede that, under all circumstances, standardized construction will create benefits. There may be benefits and may not be benefits accruing from standardized production. You will find few practical shipping men that believe that steamships can be built the same way that Ford automobiles are built.

Turning to page 5, in line 9, there is a purely technical correction of the verbiage to read "United States registry." On page 5, section 203:

The Authority shall make studies of and make a report to Congress as soon as practicable on

(1) The scrapping of old or obsolete tonnage owned by the United States or in use in the merchant marine;

(2) Tramp shipping service and the advisability of participating in such service with vessels under United States register.

We think that the words "American citizens" ought to be inserted in subsection 2, after the word "of", because we do not want the suggestion to go into this bill-and we assume that the committee does not want it to go in-that it looks to the Government going back into the shipping operation. That is consistent with the whole spirit and letter of the bill.

The suggested change and addition to section 204, appearing in lines 27, 28, and 29 on page 5 and in lines 1 and 2 on page 6, constitute an insertion designed to emphasize the importance of coastwise shipping as a part of the national defense:

The relative value and importance to national defense and availability for overseas trades of the vessels in the coastwise and intercoastal services of the United States, their importance in past naval and military operations, and the extent to which they may be required and utilized in time of war or national emergency.

Now, we think that is information which Congress should have, if it contemplates, as we suggest, the expansion of the construction loan fund to the replacement of domestic service ships.

In line 4, page 6, we suggest the addition of the words "and all other items of expense.' The authority is to make studies of "the relative cost of marine insurance, maintenance repairs, wages, and subsistence of officers and crews, and all other items of expense." Now, the conception of this bill being to equalize American shipping, on a parity with foreign shipping, and one of the three aids which the bill provides being the granting of a differential subsidy, a differential operating subsidy, designed to make up the difference in the cost of operation, there will have to be taken into consideration, in calculating that differential, not only items with respect of the "cost of marine insurance, maintenance repairs, wages of officers and crews", but other items of expense. So this authority ought to be mandated to make a study of these items and report upon them to Congress. Mr. SIROVICH. That would mean shore expenses?

Mr. CAMPBELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SIROVICH. And offices in the various cities?

Mr. CAMPBELL. Yes.

Mr. SIROVICH. And the salaries that go along with them?

Mr. CAMPBELL. Yes, sir; because you are seeking to put American shipping now on a parity with foreign shipping, and you cannot do it unless you take into consideration the shore expenses as well as the offshore expenses.

The CHAIRMAN. That will also give us the information to determine whether those shore expenses are excessive or reasonable, and whether unreasonable salaries are paid and unnecessary expenses incurred. Mr. CAMPBELL. Right.

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