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Q. There is only one Obergruppenfuehrer Kaltenbrunner, is there not?

A. That is correct, and these matters were always handled by one man in negotiations with the OKW and the Foreign Ministry, who was authorized by Himmler, and that man was Fegelein.

Q. Why do you persist in giving these answers which are obviously in error and probably constitute perjury in the face of established facts?

A. My punishment, I assume, will be the same in any case, and I have therefore no cause to lie to you, but there is no point in confirming someone's error in this case. I cannot do that.

Skorzeny's Use of American Equipment at Friedenthal

Q. I am going to ask you now about your dealings with Skorzeny and what you had to do with the concentration of American guns and vehicles at Friedenthal?

A. Nothing at all.

Q. What use did Skorzeny make of such guns and vehicles? A. That I do not know.

Q. What use was made of American uniforms by Skorzeny's men?

A. That I do not know, either.

[graphic]

Q. What did you and Schellenberg have to do with these operations?

A. He was the chief of Amt VI and in particular of Department MIL.

Q. You recall, of course, that Skorzeny had special missions such as the rescue of Mussolini?

A. Yes. This he was ordered to do directly by Hitler.

Q. And he also was active on the western front later?

A. That I do not know. I didn't know at the beginning, but I heard about it later.

Q. My question is, what did you have to do with helping his operation? The operation which involved the use of American uniforms, vehicles, guns, and other equipment?

A. I had not helped him in any way and I knew nothing whatsoever about this. Ask him yourself.

Q. You recall, don't you, furnishing him certain foreigners out of concentration camps for special purposes?

A. No.

Q. You had nothing to do with that?

A. No. Ask him. He is here. Put him on this chair, and I will guarantee you that he will say, "No, he had nothing to do with

me and never discussed these matters with me." It would be very important for me that you do this and this would furnish proof that I had nothing to do with these matters. If he required assistance from the concentration camps, he could have achieved this through Himmler or Mueller, but not through me. Kaltenbrunner Considers Himself "A Substitute Guilty Party"

Q. How do you account for the fact that in all these matters concerning concentration camps, you say that it was the responsibility of Himmler, Mueller, Pohl, Gluecks, and others, yet other witnesses always mention Kaltenbrunner?

A. I am convinced that not all other witnesses did say that. I am also convinced that you have never put a statement to the contrary before me, just as I am convinced that hundreds of witnesses would prove me right. If Himmler were alive, I guarantee he would have these questions put to him by you, and not I. Q. Was Himmler's word good?

A. Not because his word is good but because you would then not be embarrassed about the personality of, in fact, the guilty party.

Q. Let me refer to your own description of Himmler. In some of your earlier interrogations you made reference to questions involving the cases of non-Germans where they became involved in criminal cases and you said that those cases were always referred to Himmler personally to determine the punishment?

A. This is not correct. This concerned a special type of nonGerman criminals.

Q. Don't you recall, you said: "These examples show, not only what sort of a pedantic old schoolmaster he was and the pleasure he enjoyed by personally inflicting punishment but also how all authority for passing sentences, that is, executive power, was forbidden me?"

A. Yes.

Q. That was your description, wasn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. You would like to have him as your witness, is that correct? A. Not that he were my witness, but that he were alive so that you could address these questions to him as the guilty party and not me, Kaltenbrunner, because you brought up the question how it is that everybody is always talking about me, while I am always talking about Himmler, Mueller, Pohl, and Gluecks, but

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whenever I find that these questions you should have addressed to these men (and I don't know if they are alive; all I know is that Himmler is dead) I must come to the conclusion that you are looking for a substitute guilty party.

Excerpt from Testimony of Ernst Kaltenbrunner, taken
at Nurnberg, Germany, 18 October 1945, 1435-1715, by
Lt. Col. Smith W. Brookhart, IGD. Also present: Capt.
F. W. Frank, Interpreter; S/Sgt. H. Joyce, Reporter.

Absorption of the Abwehr into the RSHA

[graphic]

Q. Who directed the reorganization of Amt IV in 1944, after the RSHA had absorbed the Abwehr?

A. I should like to make a lengthy statement for your information. The Department Abwehr in the OKW was headed by Admiral Canaris. Hitler was dissatisfied with the activities of this department during a number of years. For which particular reasons I am unable to say. It is possible that Himmler carried out psychological preparations for Hitler, but I have reason to believe that the particular reason why Hitler wished to dissolve this department was because he had been inefficiently informed about two important military matters. He called Admiral Canaris the guilty party for this, and I thought he considered it improper procedure to have information obtained from a body of officers which was not altogether satisfactorily coordinated. Secondly, he ordered (I think it was in the middle of February 1944) that this department (OKW-Abwehr) was to be separated from the OKW and to be taken over by the Reichs Leader SS Himmler. He desired, in the first place, the creation of a coordinated German Intelligence Service. For this reason the Department OKWAbwehr was divided into numerous departments. It was divided into: Department Intelligence-Defense; secondly, a Department of Active Intelligence; and lastly, a Department of Intelligence Proper. I have had the experience in London* that the German word Abwehr has a completely different meaning in the German language than that which you know. I do not know whether this is known here. OKW-Abwehr was a much larger conception than that you have of Abwehr. It meant not only Abwehr, but also Offensive Espionage and Intelligence on British questions. After this decision had been made by Hitler after lengthy negotiations with Himmler, and, I believe Keitel-whether Admiral Canaris was also present it is impossible for me to say-I was also called

*Kaltenbrunner was interned and interrogated in England before his transfer to the Nurnberg prison.

to the Fuehrer's headquarters one day, and told that I was to take over, by order of Himmler, the intelligence side.

Q. What was the date?

A. It must have been on the 18th or 20th of February 1944. Other functions of the Department OKW-Abwehr were given by Himmler to Mueller and Schellenberg. I do not believe that the negotiations, lasting for months and dealing with the dissolution of the OKW-Abwehr and the taking over of the entire department [Abwehr] and its personnel, were brought to a conclusion before the end of May or beginning of June. These negotiations were conducted, in the first place, by Schellenberg, and in the second place by Mueller. My personal feelings in the matter, if I may say this, are that a large percentage of this department [Abwehr] was actively involved in the events of 20 July. This feeling of mine was confirmed when I had heard statements from fellow detainees of mine in London. Something which, in spite of my repeated remonstrations, you have not so far believed, may in this manner become a little clearer to you. That is that the 20th of July brought about a considerable earthquake in the organizations of the Reich, and that Himmler became Chief of the German Reserve Army. Previously he had taken Department Abwehr away from the OKW; now he became Chief of the Reserve Army, and thus, the nerve center of militarization.

He also had some considerable interest in the matters of military intelligence, just as the Army had before, a function which the Army was reluctant to part with. This was the reason why he obviously had to retain the immensely important Amt VI /Mil.

Q. What did you have to do with the formation or organization of VI/Mil and the other changes which took place in 1944?

A. Nothing, insofar as I was still expecting that this department would introduce political reports into the masses of reports which previously went through channels reaching the OKW. The Department OKW-Abwehr received political information and intelligence, not only military intelligence. That was the original cause of the friction between Himmler and Canaris, and there was supposed to have been agreement in the past; quite a number of orders were received, according to which OKW was only to concern itself with military organization, and political matters were to go to Himmler's organization. But these, I believe, were never obeyed. avy for oh I tud assol hemis

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Excerpts from Testimony of Ernst Kaltenbrunner, taken
at Nurnberg, Germany, 10 November 1945, 1430-1545,
by Lt. Col. Smith W. Brookhart, IGD. Also present:
John Albert, Interpreter; Frances Karr, Reporter.

Q. You are not asked to speak under oath. You understand that?

A. Yes.

[graphic]

Q. Referring again to the draft of a message found among your papers, just what did you do that caused this message to be written?

A. I do not think it is possible for me to prepare, at the same time, my defense counsel and the prosecution.

Q. Do you mean you want at this time to be with your counsel? A. I would like to talk with my defense counsel about this piece of Kaltenbrunner writing before I make statements here. Apparently my statements yesterday were not believed here because I was interrogated on it yesterday.

Q. Well, you recall that we interrupted your interrogation to permit you to talk to counsel. We had not completed. However, it is your privilege to talk to your counsel and I would not infringe on that.

A. Now, I do not have any consultation with my lawyer at the moment.

Q. Well, I am not going to ask you any more questions about this document until you have had a chance to see him.

Treatment of Commandos and Airborne Troops

Q. When did you first have knowledge as to the order issued by Hitler, dated 18 October 1942, dealing with the treatment of commandos and airborne troops?

A. I do not know that order at all.

Q. Never heard of it?

A. No.

Q. I show you a photostatic copy of the original order (498-PS) and ask you to examine it, particularly to examine the signature and tell us what you know about it.

A. (Witness examines document.) The signature I identify as that of Adolf Hitler.

Q. Others have already identified it too. It seems to be well known. What else can you say about the order?

A. The order itself has not been known to me but I read something in the German press about this addition to the order of the armed forces, but I do not recall very much what provisions were

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