Excerpts from Testimony of Franz von Papen, taken German Governmental Crises, 1932-1933. Q. [In English] Before you became the Chancellor, did you hold any other political position excepting the membership in the Prussian Diet? A. [In English] Political position, no. Q. Who appointed you Chancellor in 1932? A. Field Marshal von Hindenburg, then President of the Reich. A. Until the 2d of December, possibly, '32. Q. And thereafter, what, if any position did you occupy? A. I had no position up to the 30th of January, possibly, '33, and then on the order of the President of the Reich, I formed the government of Hitler. I took the post of the Vice Chancellor. Q. I understood you to say that you ceased to be Chancellor in December of 1932? A. Yes. Q. Why did you cease to be Chancellor in December of 1932? Q. As briefly as you can, tell us without going into too much detail at this time. A. You know that the idea of my Chancellorship was to modify in some way the German Constitution, because we considered that the authority of the Government under the Weimar Constitution was too weak, too small. The constitution of every new government took a very long time. One who knows history knows that it sometimes took weeks to form a government. The president had to deal with all political parties and so on. And at the end of the time of Mr. Bruening, the situation was very much confused, and many people considered that we should get out of this difficult situation only by reform in some way of the Constitution, giving it a stronger government. During the time I was Chancellor, we consulted two times with the Reichstag President and tried to get a better majority. We failed. We didn't get it. Q. When you say "we", do you mean the political party in which you had membership? A. No. I mean, I took the Chancellorship quite apart from the political parties. That was the idea. The idea of the Reich Min ister in forming the government was not to have a party government, but to have a government of independent men. Now then, we first appealed to the German people to elect a new Reichstag and so the second time we got a better result. For instance, we took between forty and fifty seats of the National Socialists. We couldn't get a majority, and then it has been clear that it was of no use to rest on the results of the Reichstag at that time, and at the beginning of November or at the beginning of December I presented my solution to the President and then went along the organization of von Schleicher who in some way was the originator of my government. Von Schleicher and myself and the Field Marshal, between them there was a long conversation of what to do. In that conversation I put down as my position this: I said, "There is no use to dissolve the Reichstag at this time, the third time. We must go ahead. We must try to change, to modify, the Constitution in the way we intended to do and for that time, say, about three or four months, send the Reichstag people home and then put a new constitution before them or, before the national assembly." Hindenburg, as you know, was very severe to his oath made to the Constitution as President of the Reich, and he always had declined to act against his oath, certainly as he was a man of very great responsibility. But this time he was of my opinion. He said, "Yes, I see there is no other way, and it is a necessity to the state to act and to see that the government should come out of this mess and I am ready to do so." Then von Schleicher put down his opinion. He said, "We do not need to go that way. It is not necessary. I see another way. I shall be able to split the National Socialist Party in two and then we can form a majority of the present Reichstag and you need not depart from your oath and take up all these difficulties of the way before you that I am now to propose." We talked it over and at the end of it von Hindenburg said, "I am sorry. I don't believe in your proposal, Herr von Schleicher, because I don't think you can speak of the party." Then we are again where we are now. So he decided himself for the proposition of von Papen and he gave the order to me to form a new government on behalf of that. Q. On behalf of what? A. On behalf of that proposal. Then I went home and called two or three friends of the government who were near to me, Herr von Eltz, and Guertner, the Minister of Justice, and told them the proposal. They said, "Well, we are quite ready to go with you. We share your opinion. We think it is the only way we can get to normal conditions." But you know that Herr von Schleicher since the last week goes around and says, "It is quite impossible that you take a new government. There will be civil war." I was astonished because Herr von Schleicher and I had been very close and he had never spoken a word to me about that. I said, "I am very much surprised. I didn't know anything about that." Yes, he told all of us that, too, "We should not in any way consent to a new government under your leadership. It would mean civil war and disturb public order in every way." I said, "Well, that is a new situation. I must stop negotiations with you and call the whole cabinet tomorrow morning." I did it. The next morning the cabinet went together and I told them about our negotiations with the president. Then I repeated that von Eltz and Guertner told me last night that Herr von Schleicher was very anxious not to go that way, he feared there might be great difficulties in the country, and I begged von Schleicher to express his opinion about it. Herr von Schleicher then arose and said, "Well, we have thought it over in the War Ministry and I have with me Colonel Ott", who later has been Ambassador to Japan. He on his honor made a war plan under the conditions if there should be uprising whether the army would be strong enough to protect the railway communications and have order in the country. This study showed us that if there was a general strike and unrest in the country, we can't do it with the force available. We made Colonel Ott come in and he made a long conversation before the cabinet about that and at the end of it I arose and said, "Well, I see it is quite another condition. In yesterday's conversation with the President of the Reichstag no word has been said about that and I must go for the support of the president." So I did. I went to see Hindenburg and I told him about it. The old man was as much surprised as I was myself. Then he rose and said to me, "Well, you may perhaps think me a feeble man, but I am too old to see my own Fatherland in a civil war. Then as bad as this is, I must decide myself to charge Herr von Schleicher to take the chancellorship and to try to go his way." So he did. Then, as you know, Herr von Schleicher became Chancellor. He tried to split the National Socialist Party and he failed. And then at the end of January, two months later, he came to see the Reich President and told him that he was sorry that his plan didn't work, that he failed, and he bid the president to give him the same power and the same orders as he did to me on the 2d of December. Whereupon the President said, "No, I trusted and I had confidence in Herr Papen to do it. I can't do it as you say. We must go the only way that is possible and to see that the biggest party comes into power." Q. Were you present during that conversation between von Schleicher and von Hindenburg? A. No. Q. How do you know about it? A. Hindenburg told me. Q. Very well. A. And then he charged me-he made me account and charged me to form a government with Hitler. So I did it. Q. That is very interesting, but didn't you have some conversations with the Hitler people before you were charged with forming a new government by von Hindenburg the last time in January? A. I had several conversations with the Hitler people, certainly. When I was Chancellor I tried twice to get him into my government. I offered him the post of the Vice Chancellor twice. Twice we tried to get him in, and the second time in August when I tried to get him in, as you know, he always wanted to be Chancellor, I said to him Q. You are talking about Hitler when you say "him"? A. Yes. I said to him, "The Reich President won't make you Chancellor now, because he doesn't know you enough. He has not sufficient confidence in you, but I am sure if you collaborate with him a certain time, say, a couple of months and he knows you and he knows your political ideas, then there will not be the slightest difficulty to make you Chancellor and I for myself will give you my word of honor that if that moment comes, I will quit this post as quickly as possible and get you in power then." Q. To keep the record a little more clear, when did you first meet Hitler? A. I think I first met him during my chancellorship-possibly '32. I never met him before. Q. Do you recall the circumstances of your meeting with Hitler? A. I think I met him with Herr von Alvensleben when he was connected with him and he knew me too. Q. What did you talk about at that time? A. We talked about the possibility of going together, I mean, of reforming. I probably told him about my idea, why I had taken over the Chancellorship and what we should do to get out of the mess. As far as I remember we talked about the possibility of my government and the idea of my government, what I wanted to do, what Hindenburg wanted to do. Then as I told you we tried to get him in. 0 Q. What did he say? A. He always said he would come in, but only with the whole power. Q. What do you mean by "the whole power"? A. Take over the Chancellorship. Q. What did you say? A. I said, "No." Q. When did you next talk to him, Mr. von Papen? A. Twice during my government I offered him officially, always after the elections, to get him in. Q. I see, but when do you remember as being the next time that you talked to him after that June meeting? A. I don't remember the time of the first election of the Reichstag. It might be after the first election to the Reichstag then. Q. Did you have other conversations with the associates of Hitler during that time? A. I remember I have seen once in the chancellory Goering and Helldorf, who was later Police President in Berlin. Q. Was there anyone else of his associates with whom you talked during that time? A. No. Q. Do you remember your next conversation with either Hitler or any of his people? A. My next conversation-I think after the second election of the Reichstag we failed. Then he was hostile. We had no conversations whatever. Q. When did you next see him and talk to him? A. The conversation took place on the 6th of January in the house of Herr von Schroeder.* Q. Who else was present besides you and Hitler? A. None of my people but some of his men. I don't remember who it was. Q. Von Schroeder? A. Yes. I spent Christmas at home in the conservatory and A. One of his men. Not he personally, but one of his men. Q. You didn't know him? A. Perhaps I knew him but not intimately, certainly not enough to propose to have a conversation in his house. I think the Hitler *Von Schroeder's account of this meeting, which he states took place on January 4, 1933, is published in vol. II, pp. 922-924. |