"A. There were just a few people in the WVHA who knew how things really were in concentration camps. "Q. Now as far as my question is concerned, you were speaking about a handful of men who did not belong to this group? "A. No, I did not. This handful was Himmler, Pohl, Gluecks, and Mueller and the camp commanders." A. Well, that is complete nonsense. I described to you how these were handled in the WHVA. As for instance, in the case of the use of textiles and turning-in of valuables, from Gluecks and Loerner right on down to the last little clerk they all must have known what went on in the concentration camps, and it is complete nonsense for him to speak of just a handful of men; and if it was like that in my department, naturally, it was exactly the same in his. Just to illustrate to you what I mean, when I went around to the different camps in March as the representative of Himmler, I came to Bergen-Belsen and found terrible conditions there. An epidemic of typhus had broken out, and there were mountains of dead people all over the camp, and I tried to institute emergency measures in order to stop the epidemic, and although I really couldn't do that, I told the Camp Commandant, "Don't let anybody else come into this camp." Then there were seven or eight thousand Jews there, and I wanted them to be sent to Theresienstadt to get them out of there, and I dispatched a telegram at once to the RSHA, asking them to have these Jews transferred. Later when I got to Berlin I got on the telephone and I remember I called there three or four times every day, and I don't remember any more whether it was Mueller or Eichmann that I talked to in order to have these people moved. That really shows that I, for instance, had no authority to move people and that this was a matter for the RSHA. Now these things happened and they are facts and there is no use to deny them or lie about them. They just are there and there is nothing you can do about that. Q. All right, why didn't you tell us about this before when I asked you what conditions you found when you were making your trips in early March, and when you denied finding any such conditions? I asked you about nine camps you told us you visited, and you said you didn't observe anything. What did you see at the other camps, dead people also? A. Well it is not that I tried to hide this from you, but I didn't think you asked me about it. Well, in Bergen-Belsen, you couldn't help noticing it, it was very evident, and if I didn't tell you about it, it is because I thought you didn't ask me about it, or maybe I didn't understand it. I have no interest in not telling you everything I know. It may be I forgot it for the moment, but I will gladly admit it. The only other things I remember about this trip were in Mauthausen. When I arrived there, I saw many sick people there and many of them limping around and I asked Ziereis what medical facilities he had in the camp because these people were not very well cared for. Number of Concentration Camp Inmates Available as Laborers Q. Let's turn now to the figure you gave us previously as to the number of inmates of concentration camps who were available and capable of being used as laborers. You have estimated that some two hundred to two hundred fifty thousand were used by the armament industry? A. Yes, this figure is not complete by any means because it refers only to those that were loaned out to the armament industry but does not refer to those who were used in our own armament factories. This number of two hundred to two hundred fifty thousand refers only to those who were used for purposes of armament in the labor camps and in the "Aussenlager," which were run exclusively for labor purposes, and does not include those who ma may have been used for the same purpose inside of the concentration camps where industries may have had their own small establishments. Q. How many were there in this latter group? A. Perhaps it will be easier if I do it another way. The next thing I would like to talk about are construction brigades. In all construction brigades and armament projects inside the concentration camps a further maximum number of one hundred thousand were used, so that I would be inclined to believe that the total was somewhere around 250,000, but not more than that number. Q. How were the others out of the total of 470 thousand, which would make 120,000, employed? A. The remainder of 120,000 I cannot specify in exact percentages, but I believe that it would be a fair assumption to make that roughly 40,000 of them were used for the upkeep of the camps, and for necessary work inside the camps to keep them running. A further 40,000 of them probably were in quarantinę at any one time and at least 40,000 of them upon the sick list at any one time, and probably the number of the people on the sick list was higher than that but I can only give you this approximation. 768060-48-102 1605 XXIII. HERMANN REINECKE* Excerpts from Testimony of Hermann Reinecke, taken at Branding and Other Inhumane Treatment of Russian BY LT. MARGOLIES: Q. I have here document R-94. The order deals with the marking of Russian prisoners of war.** A. Yes. (The witness examined the document.) I know this order, and, as I said yesterday, it deals with tattooing. It was issued by General Graevenitz at the time, and as soon as we learned about it, it was recalled. Q. Who is the order signed by? A. It is signed by the Chief of the Prisoner of War Department, General Graevenitz. Q. On the order it states A. (Interposing) It was always signed "By Order of the Chief of the Supreme Command of the Wehrmacht." I know this exactly. Graevenitz issued this in July of 1942, and either the Chief of the Department, the Chief of the Section, or the Chief of the Prisoner of War Department would sign it. He personally had to recall this order; he had to issue another order to cancel this one. Q. When an order is signed by the Chief of the OKW, does he know about the order before it is issued? A. Normally, an order that was signed by order of the Chief of the OKW-such an order would have to be previously approved and concurred in by the Chief of the OKW. However, I remember exactly that this order here was issued without either his or my approval, and thus it had to be recalled later. I don't know any more exactly; you would have to ask Graevenitz about it. I believe that this order was issued after a general directive had been issued by Keitel that prisoners of war would have to be marked in some way. Q. Well, do you remember when the. order was recalled? *Herman Reinecke was a General of Infantry (Lt. Gen.); Chief of the General Office of OKW; Chief of the NS Political Guidance Staff, OKW; Honorary member of the Special Senate of the People's Tribunal. Reinecke was known as one of the most Nazified of the General generals. In August 1944 he was one of the judges in the trial of participants in the 20 July 1944 attempt on Hitler's life. **Document referred to did not form part of prosecution case as finally prepared and hence is not published in this series. A. Yes; I know that exactly because all of us insisted on that as soon as we heard about it. I can swear to that. Q. Well, do you remember discussing this order with Field Marshal Keitel? A. If I remember correctly, a general order was given by Keitel that they would have to be marked or identified in some way, and that, of course, was because of the many escapes that took place. Those people would get away from the camps and then put on civilian clothes, and it would be impossible to identify them. I think this suggestion was made at the instigation of the police. I believe that this is the order that resulted. (Referring to the document)-Yes, that is it. BY COLONEL AMEN: Q. Your recollection has been refreshed about the meeting with Lahousen? A. Yes. I was very much moved and very much stirred yesterday that some of my answers were doubted. I can only repeat again that I had nine departments under me, and one can't remember all these things after four years. Q. Well, you can certainly remember that there were many conferences concerning the orders for the mistreatment of Russian prisoners of war. A. Of course, most of those conferences or discussions took place with the Prisoner of War Department. Q. No, but you personally attended many conferences where those orders were discussed? A. Of course, that is difficult to say, but it is possible. Q. Well, I will refresh your recollection about it, I think, in a very little while. Meanwhile, here is document 1519-PS.* I ask you to read it and see if that helps to refresh your recollection on any of these points. (The document was submitted to the witness.) A. Of September 1941? Oh, yes. This, then, must have been of consequence. I mean, the meeting must have taken place shortly before this. I guess that must have been in connection with the trip that I took to the front in August of that year. I noted all those things, and then I must have said, "Now listen, we can't work things like that," because the commandants of the camps were complaining. *Circular regarding treatment of Soviet Prisoners of War. See Vol. IV, p. 58. Q. What were the commandants of the camps complaining about? A. Well, just about this. Those were camps that were under the authority of the Army; they were not under us. I didn't have any camps there. They complained about the attitude of the Police, and they wanted the same thing that we wanted, namely, they wanted to have all these things done outside the camps. Q. Who is "they"? A. By "they" I mean the commandants of the camps, and of course us too. If I remember correctly, in August we had not received any Russian prisoners of war in the home area. Q. Where were they? A. They were all with the Army, and that is where the orders were sent. I believe the order that I was shown yesterday had the initials of Warlimont on it and I believe it was sent to the Army. Q. So what? A. What I mean to say about that is that those orders were sent from the Leadership Staff of the Armed Forces to the Army, and then we only saw it much later. Otherwise, we would have issued this order of the 8th of September 1941 very much earlier. Q. Well, the first order was issued on 16 June, was it not? A. But not about this subject, I don't believe. There is one mention here of the 26th of June 1941 and-oh yes, there is one up here of the 16th of June addressed to the Commander of the District. Only Breier could answer this. I was in the sanatorium at Dresden at that time, and therefore it is impossible for me to answer these questions. This is also an order that was issued without my collaboration, because otherwise it would have to say "AWA" [General Office of the Armed Forces]. Q. That is a lot of nonsense. Now, do you remember document number 502-PS* which had to do with the killing of the prisoners outside of the camp? Do you remember that order? A. You mean an order from us? Q. Never mind who it was from. I said do you remember the order that I showed you yesterday, dated 17 July 1941, about killing prisoners outside of the camp? This order right here. (The document was submitted to the witness.) A. You mean what I saw yesterday? *Vol. III, p. 422. |