However, I do have about 6 years' experience in various capacities running a division of the Westinghouse Co. that was involved in all types of oceanography. I was involved with everything from engineering to the general management of that organization. So, I do have some feel for the marine sciences side of this question. It seems to me and I have read the Stratton report quite carefullyit seems to me that while it was a very thorough report and while they went into all the aspects of what the Coast Guard was doing, I think that one aspect of it that they missed or perhaps did not consider to a sufficient extent was the question of operating responsibilities versus doing good research and engineering. It seemed to me what they wanted to do in oceanography, and, based on my experience, I quite agreed with them, what is needed is a greatly enhanced endeavor in this Nation in the field of research and engineering in the oceans. I heartily support that. I think that is a very good idea and a very necessary thing for the Nation. However, I don't agree with them when they say: "When you put this group together, it should have both very heavy operating responsibilities and very heavy responsibilities in research and engineering." I think our experience in NASA is 180 degrees in the other direction; that is, that there it became obvious quickly that it was necessary to shuck off the operating responsibilities in order to concentrate on the research and engineering in space. Most large industrial corporations have had a similar experience. They do not burden their operating divisions with broad research and engineering responsibilities. As a matter of fact, I think the experience of all of our large industrial corporations is similar here; that is, at some point in their history, they set up a research laboratory which is divorced from the operating responsibilities of the corporation. This research laboratory is then responsible for pursuing research and engineering to support the future activities of the operation. I submit that, while science and engineering is needed, a great prenonderance of the Coast Guard's efforts have been involved primarily in the operating side, and I think in that operating side it is more closely related to transportation than it is to doing the kind of oceanographic work and ocean science work that is required to make this Nation preponderant in that field. This is not to say, however, that if the Nation undertakes an oceanographic activity here, that the Coast Guard cannot support it. However. I don't believe that because the Coast Guard exists and has the capability to operate on the oceans, and that capability is being used, perhaps in a multifunctional way, that one should transfer it to an ocean agency. This is because I think there is the equal possibility that if the concentration goes to the oceanographic side, they might conceivably lower the transportation requirements, and these are very broad and very necessary. Senator HOLLINGS, Mr. Beggs, going right back to your experience in corporate activity with Westinghouse, I have visited with Mr. Press of your Westinghouse marine research facility. The point is while it is separated, you don't put that necessarily in marketing, you don't put it in transportation, they are all within the corporation. Westinghouse wouldn't dare stay in business trying to contract out its research. Westinghouse wouldn't dare stay in business just to get a transportation company and not transport a good bit of it. Your NASA role and activity was entirely different. You had to key into an exploratory research activity in order to get you there. It begs the question that we are already not in business. We have got more than 55,000 people. We have got more than $800 million being spent in the Government on marine and atmospheric programs. What we are trying to do is to get it all in the same corporation. It is just scattered all around. That is the whole point of it. You would say, for example, that the Maritime Administration is good as a separate agency, you think it should stay there? Mr. BEGGS. I think all logic points to bringing the Maritime Administration into the Department of Transportation. Senator HOLLINGS. That has to do with maritime transportation, and you would suggest that the Maritime Administration be in the Department. Suppose the President called you up and said Secretary Beggs, just forget about all these departments for a minute, what we want you to do is to get us an oceanic and marine affairs endeavor in this Government, we need a coordinated, directed effort, would you put it in the Department of Transportation? Mr. BEGGS. I would give some consideration to how I would want to organize it. I think the studies that are being done are taking into consideration such things as the President's span of control, which I understand the Secretary spoke of yesterday. There already are a lot of independent agencies, and the President's span of control already is very broad, and I think there is some necessity to consider the overall organization of the government when you set something like this up. As to a specific answer to your question, I believe it would depend on what my objectives were. If my objectives were for research and engineering, I think I would try to configure an organization that was related to research and engineering and did not have broad operating responsibilities. Then I would decide where I wanted to put it. Whether it would be an independent agency or part of one of the existing executive departments I think is a question that has to be considered very carefully in terms of all the other factors relating to Federal organization. Senator HOLLINGS. As to any endeavor in Government as far as you see the proper organizational approach, it is your testimony that the research and engineering phase of it never be confused with the operating phase of it? Mr. BEGGS. I think that makes more sense from the research and engineering side. Senator HOLLINGS. In Transportation, have you recommended that we do away with this Assistant Secretary for Research and Technology in the Department? Mr. BEGGS. No, sir, but if you notice within our organization he has no operating responsibility. Senator HOLLINGS. But he is in the organization? Mr. BEGGS. Yes, sir, just as a research laboratory of an industrial corporation is in the corporation, but they have no operating responsibility. Senator HOLLINGS. Now we are back around. You don't mind them getting into the same agency or department? Mr. BEGGS. No sir. Senator HOLLINGS. That is what we are talking about. You have got under your Department the Coast Guard. You want to hold on to it. You say the Maritime Administration ought to come under it. What about this completing the picture here, which the Stratton Commission made a stab at? We don't say that is infallible. But how would you get an oceanic program for the U.S. Government? Do you think it ought to be under the Department of Transportation? Mr. BEGGS. No, sir, I am not suggesting that. I have not studied in detail the organizational possibility for such an organization. My feeling is if you are going to reach the objectives that the Stratton Commission set up for such an organization that it should be built up around a laboratory structure and academy of engineers and scientists who are related to this field. I know of no such cadre in the Coast Guard nor do I know of any such cadre in ESSA, but I am sure if you looked around hard enough that in various places in the Federal structure there probably are such people. That is what I would orga nize around. Senator HOLLINGS. Admiral Smith, do you have anything to add? Admiral SMITH. No, sir, I have nothing to add. Senator HOLLINGS. We thank you very much for your testimony this morning. The committee is adjourned. (Whereupon, at 12:10 p.m., the committee was adjourned.) TO AMEND THE FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION ACT, AS AMENDED, BY PROVIDING FOR TEMPORARY INJUNCTIONS TO AMEND THE FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION ACT TO EXTEND PROTECTION AGAINST FRAUDULENT OR DECEP- TIVE PRACTICES, CONDEMNED BY THAT ACT, TO CON- |