reductions in personnel at all navy yards, and we have able people representing the unions coming up here and contending this is wrong, that they are losing money by doing it.

Who is going to pass on it? Will this committee do it?

Mr. NELSON. The Panama Canal Zone comes under the control of this committee.

Senator BYRD. What legislation puts the Panama Canal Zone under the control of this committee?

Senator KEFAUVER. The Reorganization Act.

Mr. CHAMBERS. It is included in the Reorganization Act as one of the specific responsibilities of our committee.

Senator KEFAUVER. If these gentlemen were here saying keep both of them open, I would say they did not have much to stand on, but they say it will not affect the number of employees, but they are here in the interest of economy, and if what they say is true, it is economy because as I understand, they will keep this Balboa shop in a stand-by condition anyway and it will cost a lot of money to get the Cristobal one in shape to operate.

Senator BYRD. You have not taken it up with Secretary Johnson? Senator KEFAUVER. No. That is at least the allegation.

Senator CAIN. It would be my opinion, Senator, in listening very seriously to these gentlemen, that if this committee, as has been proposed, called this matter to the attention of those in authority, who admittedly are already studying it, those persons will feel constrained to support strongly whatever position they find to take.

The influence of the committee in that instance is used in telling the Military Establishment that we are not only conscious of the problem, but we are concerned about it. Now, what is this situation? I think it would be extraordinarily helpful to your position if the motion just made by the Senator from Massachusetts was agreed to. They are already studying it. This letter representing the whole committee says, "What is this?" I think it would make a lot of sense.

Mr. NELSON. The only thing is the matter of how much time it takes. They have already started this move now, and even contrary to what they originally said. We are in a kind of a squeeze down there in that the boys who have been up here and made representations have found themselves rather embarrassed when they got back down there because they came up and brought it to the attention of various people.

Senator CAIN. There are a lot of mishaps in this business.

Senator BYRD. It is correct, as stated by Mr. Nelson, that the Committee on Armed Services, as one of its responsibilities, has the responsibility of the maintenance and operation of the Panama Canal, including the administration, sanitation, and the government of the Canal Zone.

Senator KEFAUVER. Mr. Chairman, it is also a part of the Reorganization Act that we are supposed to have surveillance every so often of how things under our jurisdiction are operating.

Senator BYRD. It is likewise part of our responsibility to have responsibility for the common defense generally, the War Department,. Navy Department, and Air Force, which of course is an impossibility for us to attempt to go into details of this character.

The only thought I have, just a personal opinion as a member of the committee, is that I do not think we should ask the Secretary of

National Defense-in fact, he has no authority over the matter, as I understand it, has he? The Governor of the Canal Zone-all we could do would be to communicate with the Governor of the Canal Zone and present these facts to him for his consideration. The Secretary of National Defense, so far as I have been able to ascertain, has no direct control over the matter except the right to recommend as this committee would have to do.

Senator KEFAUVER. I think under the Panama Canal Act there is a provision bringing the Secretary of Defense or the Defense Establishment into the picture.

Senator BYRD. By the same token, I ask you this because I think you will be involved in it if we take this action, wouldn't we have the responsibility for the Navy Department? That gives us that responsibility, too. Now, if a complaint is made that something is being done to these navy yards-and there is a lot of complaint about it, if you had a navy yard in your State, I think you would realize itwould it be our duty to investigate that and go into that with everything else that is being done? I put that out because if we accept it as a precedent and obligation that we must look into such matters. as this and make recommendations, as to whether 200 or fewer employees should be cut off of a certain activity, I wonder where it is. going to end. We have no more responsibility under the act for the Panama Canal than we have for the War Department or the Navy Department or these other classifications here, which take up a couple of pages in the reorganization bill.

I think we ought to recognize that if we go into it.

Senator KEFAUVER. I agree with you, Mr. Chairman, but it seems to me this is the first time that I have heard of where it is averred that the proposed move is really not in the interest of economy.

Senator BYRD. I would like you to be in my position in the State of Virginia. Every single move down there, the objection was made that it is a wasteful move and would not only not save money, but would cost more money. That same argument is made. These gentlemen know that.

The other day we had a big delegation asserting that certain parts of ships and other things are made at other yards at far greater costs than they could be made at the Norfolk yard, what they propose to do would be very costly and lose money instead of saving money. That is always the argument.

Senator KEFAUVER. Mr. Chairman, in line with Senator Saltonstall's suggestion that we advise the Secretary of Defense of the representations that have been made here, I wonder if the Senator will accept an amendment that we also advise the Governor of the Canal Zone.

Senator SALTONSTALL. I have added that.

Senator BYRD. I certainly hope the Senator will not insist upon us making a recommendation as to what should be done. I would have no objection whatever to submitting the information you have, but I think if we undertake to recommend what should be done in these matters, we are opening up an avenue of responsibility and labor on the part of this committee that is just beyond our comprehension. I say that from my knowledge of what is going on in Virginia today. Senator SALTONSTALL. That motion does not make any recommendation, Mr. Chairman.

Senator CHAPMAN. It also, as I understand it, includes the statement by Senator Kefauver, Mr. Nelson, and the letter from Senator Edwin Johnson.

Senator SALTONSTALL. That is correct.

Senator BYRD. Your motion is to refer, without recommendation, the letter from Senator Johnson, Senator Kefauver's statement, to both the Secretary of National Defense and the Governor of the Canal Zone.

Senator CHAPMAN. And Mr. Nelson's statement.

Senator SALTONSTALL. The record of this morning's meeting, which will include Mr. Nelson's statement.

Senator BYRD. Is that satisfactory?

Senator KEFAUVER. If that is the best we can do.

I have

Senator BYRD. I happen to live in a naval State and I know what a conflict is occurring in regard to these reductions that are being made. I would be perfectly willing, if the committee wants it done, to turn over to the committee the complaints that are coming to me. saved the committee from people who would come and complain. Senator KEFAUVER. I thought this might be a place where I could join the distinguished Senator in an economy move. If it turns out to be one, I would be happy to do so.

Senator BYRD. Usually you get more economy by abolishing something than by continuing. It may be you get more by continuing it in this instance. But I do not think, frankly, that it is within the province of the committee to determine, unless we want to undertake a number of others, hundreds and thousands of them over this country. Senator CHAPMAN. The committee does not have sufficient knowledge of the subject.

Senator BYRD. Official action by this committee would be bound to be obeyed by the departments. They would hold it up or cancel it if we so recommend. The motion is without recommendation that the letter of Senator Johnson and Senator Kefauver's statement, the record of this meeting, be sent to the Secretary of Defense and to the Governor of the Canal Zone.

Is there any objection to that? Is that satisfactory, Senator Kefauver?

Senator KEFAUVER. Yes. As I understand it, it is not wholly satisfactory, but that is the best we can do, so I will settle that way (The motion was carried unanimously.)

(Whereupon, at 12:30 p. m., the committee retired into executive session.)