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Mr. Tulloss. I understand that the Comptroller General, upon the request of Congressman May, advised him that he could examine the report.

Mr. BIDDLE. And Congressman May sent Colonel Cassidy down to his office? Mr. TULLOSS. As his representative.

Mr. BIDDLE. And Colonel Cassidy made extracts from the report before it was released?

Mr. TULLOSS. I don't know about that.

Mr. BIDDLE. It appears in the testimony before the Military Affairs. Committee, does it not?

Mr. TULLOSS. I don't think that I have ever read that.
Mr. BIDDLE. You have never read it?

Mr. BIDDLE. Then don't you know that the extracts made by Colonel Cassidy were mimeographed on a machine owned by Mr. Beasley, who is the counsel for the Alabama Power Co., and distributed publicly?

Mr. TULLOSS. No. Representative WOLVERTON. Who is Mr. May? Mr. BIDDLE. He is a Member of Congress. Representative WOLVERTON. Is that Andrew Jackson May? Mr. BiddLE. I don't know his first name, but if he comes from Kentucky it sounds as if that might be right.

Representative WOLVERTON. I assume that the General Accounting Office took the position that a Member of Congress has the right to look at their records, the same as they have the other departments.

Mr. Tulloss. As I recall, Mr. McCarl took that position.

Representative WOLVERTON. It is up to the conscience of the par-. ticular Congressman what use is made of the information that he receives.

Representative BARDEN. Who is Colonel Cassidy?
Mr. TULLOSS. Who is Colonel Cassidy?
Representative BARDEN. What is his business?

Mr. TULLOSS. I do not know, sir. I have met the gentlemen, but

Mr. BIDDLE. He is a power lobbyist in Washington, isn't he?

Mr. Tulloss. He has been present here at the hearings, I don't know whether he is in the room now. I know him by sight, and the report was made available to him to examine as the representative of Congressman May.

Mr. BIDDLE. And was then mimeographed and distributed? Mr. Tulloss. I don't know. Representative BARDEN. Isn't it customary when records of that kind are inspected by anyone, that there is some statement made as to whether or not they are confidential records? The thing that I am trying to get at—was the information given Colonel Cassidy confidential, and supposed to be for the purposes of Congressman May, or for the purpose of passing out to the public? Wouldn't you make inquiry into that of the man examining the record?

Mr. TULLOSS. I don't recall just what connection I had with the incident, or whether Colonel Cassidy was advised in that respect;

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but my impression now is that Congressman May was advised that this report was confidential, and was for the purposes stated in the law and no other. But being a Congressman, he was permitted to examine it.

Representative WOLVERTON. It is my recollection that Congressman May is a member of the Military Affairs Committee of the House, is he not?

Representative JENKINS. He is the chairman of it.

Representative WOLVERTON. Now, he has that right; and as Mr. Barden has said, if he has submitted to him a report as confidential why it is up to him whether he wants to respect that confidence or not; and I don't know.

Representative BARDEN. I am not questioning Congressman May's conduct, I am wondering whether Colonel Cassidy secured some information that he knew at the time was confidential information, and then mimeographed it and passed it out to the public.

Representative WOLVERTON. I could gain some information about this report, from a speech that was made by Senator Austin, on the floor of the Senate, that brought out a great many of these features. The reason that I referred to that is merely that whenever a department has submitted anything to me as confidential, I have never yet revealed it to anyone, and whether that was the case or not

Representative BARDEN. I think that there is some merit in a gentlemen's agreement, whether you are dealing with the Government or who.

Senator Brown. Who is Colonel Cassidy?

Mr. Tulloss. As I said awhile ago, I only know him by sight; I do not know his position.

Senator BROWN. Do you know his business? Mr. Tulloss. No. Senator Brown. Do you know whether or not he is associated with the power companies?

Mr. TULLOSS. No, sir.

Senator Brown. Is there anyone in your group there that knows about him?

Mr. Tulloss. I don't think so.
Representative WOLVERTON. Mr. Biddle says that he was.

Mr. BiddLE. I understand from the evidence here, that Colonel Cassidy said that he was not being paid for this, but was very much interested in the whole question of power; and then, Colonel Cassidy didn't know how, but Mr. Beasley, counsel for the Alabama Power Co., had it mimeographed in one of his machines and distributed.

Representative WOLVERTON. That is from the hearings of the Military Affairs Committee?

Mr. BIDDLE. Yes.

Senator SCHWART2. Senator Austin may have gotten it after it was mimeographed and not known anything about it-about it being confidential.

Representative WOLVERTON. Being a Senator, I assume that he had a reason for everything that he did.

Mr. Tulloss. The law provides for sending one copy to the chairman of the Board for public inspection at the principal office of the

corporation; from the time that the copy was mailed to the T. V. A. I assume that one copy was available for public inspection, and it there became public property at that point.

Mr. BIDDLE. Certainly; it has nothing to do with this. Now, let us get down to these figures. I understood you that you said to me, that it was a little difficult to allocate the exceptions for any year. Where did you get the figures in your annual report, that during the fiscal year 1936–37 exceptions were made and the Authority regularly notified to a total of 7,964 transactions, involving somewhat over fifteen and a half million dollars. Did you get that information from the T. V. A.?

Mr. Tulloss. I don't know that it was obtained from T. V. A. at that time, but I have been told since then that that is where it came from.

Mr. BIDDLE. In other words, the figures given you here were from T. V. A.

Vice Chairman MEAD. Is it the intention of counsel to complete the investigation of this witness tonight? Mr. BIDDLE. Yes; in 5 minutes less than that, three questions. Representative WOLVERTON. I have several more items that we haven't touched here.

Mr. BIDDLĖ. Let us keep him on a little bit later this afternoon, and try to finish.

Senator SCHWARTZ. Congressman Jenkins made a start awhile ago, but we took the floor away from him.

Mr. BIDDLE. I thought that when I began questioning him that you had finished. I am sorry, Congressman.

Representative JENKINS. Everybody runs over me.
Mr. BIDDLE. I am very sorry. I have a few more questions now.

Then these figures in your annual report were figures that were given you from the T. V. A. In other words, you had to go to the T. V. X. to get what your exceptions were; is that right? Mr. Tulloss. No; I won't say that we had to go to T. V. A. Mr. BIDDLE. But you did. Mr. Tulloss. I thought, at the time that the report was prepared, that they were the figures of the General Accounting Office, and I am told now that they were not, and I don't know whether that information is correct one way or the other.

Mr. BIDDLE. You don't know if this annual report with respect to T. V. A. is correct one way or the other?

Mr. Tulloss. I would say this that if the figures came from T.V. A., we had a right to rely on them.

Mr. BIDDLE. So that you don't know whether or not the figures in this annual report of yours are correct or not; is that right? You indicated that.

Mr. Tulloss. That is true; I would not know; no, sir.

Mr. BIDDLE. You spoke yesterday of amounts recovered by T. V.A. from exceptions that you suggested to them, and you were going to get us a total of the amounts; have you got that? Mr. Tulloss. No, sir; I haven't got that. Mr. BIDDLE. Would you when you can? Mr. TULLOSS. Yes.

Mr. BIDDLE. You have got a note to get it?

Mr. BIDDLE. A discrepancy or difference was pointed out to you yesterday, in the 1934 audit, between the figures of $317,628.13 and your item of $118,000. Have you got that information for us?

Mr. Tulloss. Yes, sir.
Mr. BIDDLE. Will you give it to us? Well, I will put it this way:
Will you turn to the sheet covering the item of $118,000; have you
got that?

Mr. Tulloss. Yes.
Mr. BIDDLE. What is that item?

Mr. MATCHETT. That is the depreciation charged to power operations, and other operations.

Mr. BIDDLE. Right. Now, there was another item of $317,628.13; I don't remember the page that is on.

Mr. MATCHETT. That is part of the same item; that $317,000 is the total of all depreciation during the year, of which the $118,000 was charged to operations. Mr. BIDDLE. There is no discrepancy, is there? Mr. MATCHETT. No. Mr. BIDDLE. The $118,000 is part of the larger figure?

Mr. MATCHETT. Yes; and the balance was charged to the cost of construction of dams and other construction.

Mr. BIDDLE. Right.
Vice Chairman MEAD. Are there any further questions?

Representative WOLVERTON. I have quite considerable, Mr. Chairman, and there would be no thought in my mind that I could finish it in half an hour.

Vice Chairman MEAD. The committee will adjourn until 9:30 a.m. in the morning, and continue with the same witness.

(Whereupon, at 4 o'clock, the hearing was recessed until 9:30 a. m., December 1, 1938.)




Senate Office Building, Washington, D. C. The committee met pursuant to adjournment in room 357, Senate Office Building, at 9:30 a. m.

Present: Senator Vic Donahey (chairman), Senators Schwartz, Frazier, and Brown; Representatives Thomason, Barden, Wolverton, and Jenkins.

Chairman DONAHEY. You may proceed.

Mr. BIDDLE. Mr. Chairman, think I was engaged in completing my questions. I have one or two questions left for the witness.



Mr. Biddle. You took occasion, I think, Mr. Tulloss, to criticize the allocation report in your 1934 audit. Now, that the allocation has been fixed under the statute and approved by the President, would you feel it your duty to make any criticisms of the present allocation on the books of T. V. A.?

Mr. Tulloss. I believe the entire amount has not been allocated, and there may be some comment in later reports dealing with that.

Mr. BIDDLE. I am speaking of the amount which has been allocated.

Mr. Tulloss. I don't think so. I know of no occasion to comment on that further.

Mr. BIDDLE. The T. V. A. obtained from the General Accounting Office an employee to have transferred to T. V. A. so that he could take hold of the work up there?

Mr. Tulloss. Not that I know of.
Mr. BIDDLE. You don't know about that?
Mr. Tulloss. No, sir.

EXCEPTIONS TO AUTHORITY PAYMENTS Mr. BIDDLE. There was such an arrangement. Now, you were kind enough at our suggestion to prepare a statement of the present status of the exceptions to payments made by T. V. A. as of June 15, 1938. This paper that you hand me, and that I am going to read from, so far as you can tell, is a substantially correct summary of the exceptions, without perhaps being very exact, as it changes from day to day. Mr. Tulloss. Yes, sir. Mr. BIDDLE. Is that right? Mr. Tulloss. Yes, sir.


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