In other words, if milk, the production of milk or dairy farming, was an essential activity of the T. V. A., it could have been accomplished quite as well with cows of a shorter pedigree than these.

Representative WOLVERTON. Well, that was the thought that I had in mind. Of course when you buy Jersey cows you expect to get a high butter content, and I understand that notwithstanding the high butter content that was procurable from these cows, which generally applies to Jersey cows, that afterward this high butter-content milk was exchanged for a lower-butter-content milk, as compensation for pasteurizing the better grade of milk, is that right?

Mr. MATCHETT. That is right. The Authority had at that time not completed its pasteurization plant, and resorted to that means of having the milk pasteurized.

Representative WOLVERTON. That was the story I got when I was down there in Knoxville, that they took this high content butterfat milk, about 6 percent, and not having any pasteurizing equipment of their own, that they turned that good milk over to a pasteurizing company and took in return a lower grade of milk, the justification being that taking the lower grade in place of the high grade was compensation to the pasteurizing company for having pasteurized the milk. Is that true?

Mr. MATCHETT. Those are the facts.

Representative WOLVERTON. That is the way I got it down there. And then I also understood that they took this milk and carried it about 80 miles for sale. Did that ever come to your attention? Mr. MATCHETT. I am not aware of that.

Representative WOLVERTON. To a C. C. C. camp or something of the kind.

Mr. MATCHETT. I can't answer that one way or the other.

Representative WOLVERTON. I was wondering if it did, if the transportation charges didn't bring a situation about where it overcame the price of the milk by the time it got there.

Senator SCHWARTZ. Was it pasteurized milk that was taken to the C. C. C. camp?

Representative WOLVERTON. Milk from this herd.

Senator SCHWARTZ. I asked if it was pasteurized.

Representative WOLVERTON. I assume so, because they had that pasteurizing done close to home.

Senator SCHWARTZ. You would not object to pasteurizing milk that goes to a C. C. C. Camp, would you?

Representative WOLVERTON. No, nor even to a Senator.

Senator SCHWARTZ. I take mine raw.

Representative WOLVERTON. No; let's pasteurize it, even if it doesn't have any butterfat left.

Now, I won't go into the poultry end of it, because the herd has illustrated the situation.

Representative JENKINS. Have they got poultry in here, too?
Representative WOLVERTON. Yes.

Representative JENKINS. I didn't know that.

MEDICAL SERVICES

Representative WOLVERTON. On page 361 there is this statement, with respect to the hospital and medical service. [Reading:]

It is understood that there is now under consideration a plan to expand the medical service so that it may be available to relatives and visiting guests, not necessarily employees of the Authority.

The proposed plan is to include medical, surgical, dental, obstetrical service, laboratory work, X-ray, diagnostics, operating rooms, etc., home service by physicians and nurses, in fact general hospital, medical, surgical, and dental treatments in the area adjacent to the T. V. A. projects where permanent towns and villages are located.

Now, the part of that that interested me is, as I read it here, this statement:

It is understood that there is now under consideration a plan to expand the medical service

in the way that is indicated there.

Not having anything but the 1934 report before me on the subject I am asking now, was that plan to expand carried out so that it was to reach out and take care of guests and relatives and everybody who happened to be in the district, when some malady fell upon them?

Mr. OWEN. Some of those projects are quite isolated, like Pickwick Dam. There is really no town close.

Representative WOLVERTON. Oh, I am not talking about what you are doing for the employees. Get me?

Mr. OWEN. They did to the families.

Representative WOLVERTON. I think there is a perfectly fine work being done by the T. V. A. for its employees in their construction camps, and I am in full accord with that. I was greatly pleased with what I saw.

But what I am asking is this:

It is understood that there is now under consideration a plan to expand the medical service so that it may be available to relatives and visiting guests. Mr. OWEN. They did for immediate relatives.

Representative WOLVERTON. I wanted to know whether it had expanded, or did they drop it?

Mr. OWEN. They did expand it and made it available to the families of employees. They pay in a dollar a month, or such an amount, each employee has it taken out of his salary to take care of that.

Senator SCHWARTZ. Was that similar to the free medical and dental service that the departments now give to Members of Congress and their families?

Mr. OWEN. No.

Representative WOLVERTON. I didn't know that they did. That is something new. That shows how Senators find out what is going on. Senator SCHWARTZ. I got it from a Republican Senator, so I am taking his word for it.

Representative WOLVERTON. I assume it must be true or else you wouldn't say it, but I didn't know their families could get medical

treatment.

Mr. OWEN. Of course there is some charge for their families. Representative WOLVERTON. We don't get free shaves in the House

either.

Mr. OWEN. They have greatly expanded the medical service.
Representative WOLVERTON. What?

Mr. OWEN. They have greatly expanded the medical service and have regular stations.

Representative WOLVERTON. I am not criticizing what they do for their employees. I am not even going to the point of finding fault. with cooperatives that are formed among the employees, where for a payment they get certain services. I am not going into that, I think it is all commendable. What I am asking is was it expanded to the extent of making the services available to relatives and visiting guests. Mr. BIDDLE. Would you look at page 338, the comment on that, of the T. V. A.?

Representative WOLVERTON. The report does not say that they gave it to them. It said they were considering the expansion of it. That is what I am inquiring of as to whether a subsequent examination shows there was such further expansion.

Senator SCHWARTZ. You say there was "under consideration"?
Representative WOLVERTON. Yes; these are the words:

There is now under consideration a plan to expand the medical services so that they may be available to relatives and visiting guests, not necessarily employees of the Authority.

Senator SCHWARTZ. Your suggestion is that the Accounting Office then should preaudit future considerations, as well as acts done?

Representative WOLVERTON. I don't know what you are getting at, but I am appreciative of any department of the Government that puts us wise to that kind of expenditure.

Chairman DONAHEY. Let the witness answer once.
Representative WOLVERTON. That is what I think.

Mr. TULLOSS. The Tennessee Valley Authority makes this reply, on page 338:

Nowhere in our records is mention made of relatives and visiting guests as being recipients of medical care in this program.

Neither is any mention made that dental care would be included.

Moreover, there is no mention that any sliding scale of charges would be made based upon the income of employees.

Finally the statement that the medical program would be developed in areas adjacent to Tennessee Valley Authority projects where permanent towns and villages are located is misleading. Actually these cooperative medical-care programs are intended to serve only those construction areas that are remote from any other source of medical service.

And moreover, the services are to be limited to employees and their immediate families and/or dependents.

Representative WOLVERTON. That would indicate that they did not have the intention to expand, and that your statement to that effect might not have been based upon proper information.

But in view of the fact that you have made the statement, and must have had some basis for it, are you in position to say whether in subsequent years that expansion that you refer to in 1934 was actually made or not?

Mr. TULLOSS. I understard that it was made to members of the families of employees.

Representative WOLVERTON. But not to relatives and visiting

guests?

115943-39-pt. 11- -8

Mr. TULLOSS. And guests, too, I believe.

Representative WOLVERTON. Oh, it did include guests?

Mr. TULLOSS. It included guests who were stricken suddenly with illness at any of these isolated projects.

Representative WOLVERTON. Of course we would give attention to anybody under those circumstances. They would not have to be a guest, would they?

Mr. MATCHETT. No.

Representative WOLVERTON. In other words, anybody who happened to meet with some unfortunate accident or some malady suddenly overtook them, whether they were a guest of an employee or not, simple humanity, humaneness would give those people attention, and I am not talking of that; and maybe the answer is "no," that it has not been expanded. All I am interested in knowing is whether it has been expanded so that relatives and guests of employees come within this general medical attention. Now, if it does not, let's If it does, let's say so, let's just get what the facts are.

say so.

Mr. MATCHETT. When this program was first started, medical care was given only to those workmen right there on the project. It was extended to include the members of the immediate family living there or visiting at the time.

Representative WOLVERTON. Well, now, that part of it is proper, so far as families are concerned, because that is an out-of-the-way place in some instances. Take Hiwassee Dam

Mr. MATCHETT. Not all of them.

Representative WOLVERTON. Not all of them, that is absolutely true. But even if you give the medical service from the standpoint of humaneness, why wouldn't it be charged for to a visitor who would happen to have an illness come suddenly upon him?

In other words, this would indicate that as a basic principle that that medical service was to be expanded, they said first, workmen, then the families, then it got to the point of guests. Now, do they give that kind of service to the employees, their families, their guests at the present time?

Mr. MATCHETT. At certain of the projects under construction, emergency service to guests and visitors.

Representative JENKINS. Let me ask a question and see if there is anything developing in your line of work that would indicate a situation like this. Suppose that out at Hiwassee they would establish a complete hospital, a diagnostic center, as it were, operating facilities. Of course, if they started it they would make it as grand as they could. Suppose it was a great, magnificent hospital that they had out there, enough to serve the whole county, two or three counties, where Hiwassee Dam is located, and they would say, "We have got the facilities, we might as well render this service and render it free."

You can easily see how soon they would be doing a social-service work out there clear beyond the purview of their business. Have you discovered anything that would indicate a tendency like that, like they did the schools at Hiwassee?

Mr. MATCHETT. No, sir.

Representative JENKINS. They took over the schools, provided their own curriculum, and employed their own teachers without much regard to the State department of instruction.

1

There is no tendency for them to socialize that whole community through the fact the people might need medical treatment, is there? Mr. MATCHETT. That has not been my experience there. Representative WOLVERTON. Well, when we get the subsequent exceptions to activities of T. V. A. that will come along in due course, I assume we can check up on all of that and see.

Representative BARDEN. Let me ask the witness a question. Some of these projects are out of the way and are isolated villages; is that correct?

Mr. TULLOSS. Yes, sir.

Representative BARDEN. The major portion of the population of such villages is made up of employees of T. V. A.; is that correct?

Mr. TULLOSS. Following the inauguration of the project.

Representative BARDEN. Yes. If the T. V. A. was providing medical service for the employees there would be practically no prac tice for any outside physician who might want to establish himself there; is that correct?

I mean by that there just wouldn't be enough practice to justify a man to go there?

Mr. TULLOSS. I should say that probably there would not be enough to justify anyone going there. Of course if the local inhabitants justified the presence of a physician he probably would have entered the field prior to the starting of the project.

Representative BARDEN. That is correct. Now, what has happened here is a perfectly practical and human thing to do, is it not? If doctors were available for the employees, and some member of a man's family were taken sick, or somebody who is a guest in the house was sick, would it be very practical or sensible to have to send 50 or 60 miles and doctors usually charge I think a dollar a mile for a callto get a doctor when this doctor was right there present? Wouldn't it be the practical and the humane, and the sensible thing to do to let him take care of it?

Mr. TULLOSS. Well, I assume that the doctor would be available, even though he was employed, an employee of the Tennessee Valley Authority, and that he could still serve.

Representative WOLVERTON. Are they whole-time-paid doctors? Mr. TULLOSS. They are full time.

Representative BARDEN. If they are full time, and if they had accepted money for it, somebody would have had a report in here on them for grafting.

Mr. TULLOSS. No.

Representative BARDEN. So they would have been shot either way. Mr. TULLOSS. I think members of the medical staff of the Government generally have the right to practice outside of their employment, if it does not interfere with their employment.

Senator SCHWARTZ. Well, if they have the right to practice privately from their employment, and then they see fit to render services to some individual in circumstances that we have been talking about, if they don't see fit to charge them anything for it, nobody is injured, is there?

Mr. TULLOSS. No, sir; quite right.