near the creeks, that swampland, this valley storage land, and use it for water storage in connection with the small dams, than it would be to buy the higher-priced land and the farm land and drive the farmers back and buy their properties in your program?

Colonel PARKER. We are actually buying that land, the land which you describe, and we are also buying sufficient land so that in advance of a flood by means of these regular storage structures we are able to pass the water and leave a sufficiently large volume unused so that when the large flood comes along we are able to put that flood on those lands and control it and hold it back until the floods have subsided below. This business of allowing water to simply rise on these lands with no control of any kind, I am afraid would not be very practical. Representative JENKINS. Colonel, the land that you are going to flood is the land that you are going to flood with the last foot on the top of the dam, isn't that right?

Colonel PARKER. Some land will be flooded by the last foot of water, there is no doubt about that.

Representative JENKINS. Isn't that after all what your flood storage is? Let's don't take advantage of the fact you are a brilliant man and I am not, let's be frank about it.

Colonel PARKER. That is correct, yes.

Representative JENKINS. Wouldn't you say as an engineer now, you answer me as an engineer, it would be cheaper for the Government, and more advantageous for flood storage of water, to build a great gigantic structure two or three hundred feet high, and apply the last 2 or 3 feet on top of that for flood storage, as contrasted with taking the land down by the creek, where the good Lord made the creek and the lowland together-would that be more economical? Colonel PARKER. Of course the amount of flood storage which you acquire and use is a matter of actual volumes. And these volumes are much greater as you go up an elevation. The volume which would be available at these low levels would be insignificant.

Representative JENKINS. Now, I know your point, but you have got, in order to get that, just like you build a bird's house way up on a high pole, that is your program, to build your dams, because you have got to get power from the bottom. You can't get power from the top of the dam, you have got to run the water out of the bottom to get your power, and of course that is your program.

My position is this, to make it clear, and I'll not argue any more about it, my position is that the Government by spending $75,000,000 would have given the Tennessee Valley all of the navigation facilities it would need, and make it on a par with the Ohio River, and that you are spending $475,000,000, and that the difference between $475,000000 and $75,000,000 is absolutely for the benefit of power and nothing else.

If I am right—if I am not right, you can take all the time you want to defend yourself, because that is my humble position.

Mr. BIDDLE. Mr. Chairman, might I be permitted to ask a question in this connection?

Senator SCHWARTZ. Before you get into that, if the Congressman has subsided for a moment

Mr. BIDDLE. Excuse me.

Senator SCHWARTZ. All I wanted to bring out was his question said that the difference between low dams was between navigation and power alone.

And I wanted to bring out the matter of flood control as a third factor. And the Congressman's question also, one of them that he just repeated, takes the position that at the time of the flood your high dams would all be full of water anyhow.

As a matter of fact, you testified at some length here this morning before the Congressman got in that your control over these dams would permit you to let the water out and let it out in accordance with the knowledge that the Army Engineers and others had as to when the floods come down on the main river, and on down to the Mississippi River, and with that control you could let the waters out and still have the high dams available to take care of the flood as it came along.

Colonel PARKER. That is correct.

Representative THOMASON. Neither do you accept his contention that the low-dam system could have been built for $75,000,000.

Colonel PARKER. I should like, if I may, to quote from some estimates which we have made of the so-called single-purpose projects. for the whole scheme.

Representative THOMASON. The estimates that you made?
Colonel PARKER. Yes, sir.

Representative THOMASON. Based upon an actual survey.

Colonel PARKER. Based upon our own information. Our estimate would be that to provide a single-purpose navigation scheme-that is, for navigation alone adequately from the mouth to Knoxville would cost about $163,000,000; that a single-purpose flood-control scheme to provide equivalent flood control to that proposed in our multiplepurpose system would cost about $140,000,000; that a power development alone, picking out not the sites which we developed, but the best power sites, which would produce an equivalent amount of power to our multipurpose development, would cost about $250,000,000, or a total of about $554,000,000, which compares very unfavorably with our estimated cost of $407,000,000 for those projects, or for this multiple-purpose project.

rately.

Representative THOMASON. That is your estimate if built sepaColonel PARKER. Yes, sir.

Representative THOMASON. Not on an interrelated basis.

Colonel PARKER. So that by building single structures which provide all of these purposes, we save the difference, we will say, between $407,000,000, and $554,000,000. That is the measure of the economy of this sort of thing. Moreover, I don't agree that this $75,000,000 will produce it in the first place. We don't agree that the navigation it would produce would be equivalent in character or quality to what high dams will provide. Secondly, we most decidedly do not agree that it could be built, that 32 low-navigation dams could be built for anything like $75,000,000.

Mr. BIDDLE. Have you finished, Senator?
Senator SCHWARTZ. Yes.

USE OF AUTHORITY DAMS FOR JOINT FLOOD CONTROL AND POWER PURPOSES

Mr. BIDDLE. Was it your duty, and I am quoting now from section 4-J of the T. V. A. Act, to construct such dams and reservoirs in the Tennessee Valley and its tributaries as, in conjunction with Wilson Dam, and Norris, Wheeler, and Pickwick Landing Dams now under construction, will provide a 9-foot channel in the said river, and maintain a water supply for the same from Knoxville to its mouth, and will best serve to promote navigation on the Tennessee River and its tributaries, and control destructive floodwaters in the Tennessee and Mississippi River drainage basins. Was that your duty?

Colonel PARKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BIDDLE. Now, to what extent, if at all, did the low-dam navigation system of the Army Engineers provide for the control of destructive floodwaters either on the Tennessee or Mississippi River?

Colonel PARKER. The low dams so-called

Mr. BIDDLE. Yes.

Colonel PARKER. Would have provided for no flood control.
Mr. BIDDLE. No flood control at all?

Colonel PARKER. No flood control at all.

Mr. BIDDLE. That was admitted, was it not, by the Army Engineers?

Colonel PARKER. I believe so.

Mr. BIDDLE. There is no question about that?

Colonel PARKER. I believe so. It is fairly obvious.

Representative JENKINS. Are you through, Mr. Biddle?

Mr. BIDDLE. Yes.

Representative JENKINS. May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman? Chairman DONAHEY. You may.

Representative JENKINS. What would you say to this? I am reading here from the testimony given before the committee of Congress. This question was asked, and let's see if you will agree with this question. First I will ask you do you know General Pillsbury? Colonel PARKER. I have met him, yes, sir.

Representative JENKINS. General Pillsbury held what position in the Army Engineers, do you know?

Colonel PARKER. He was Assistant Chief.

Representative JENKINS. He was Assistant Chief for a good many years, was he?

Colonel PARKER. Yes, sir.

Representative JENKINS. I will read a question and see if you agree with this. Mr. McLean, who was a Member of Congress, asked this question:

So that the high dams should be constructed with the idea of electric power generation only in view?

General PILLSBURY. Oh, yes. They are not to be for navigation. The justification for their large expenditure can be found only in the power that they may make available.

What do you say about that?

Colonel PARKER. Simply that it does not alter the physical facts of the case; that is, that storage is available for flood control behind those dams, and we can measure it accurately, and see just how much there is.

Representative JENKINS. Let's see how much you give each dam. Let's see if you agree with this. At Wheeler Dam you only have 1 foot allowed.

Colonel PARKER. No, sir. I will read you those. We estimate the flood-control storage available at Wheeler at about 440,000 acrefeet. That would involve using that part of the reservoir available between elevations 556 and elevation 548, a total of about 8 feet. That amount of water can be used, some of it in some instances for power and in some instances for flood control.

Representative JENKINS. Yes; but I am asking what was set aside definitely and exclusively.

Colonel PARKER. In that case there is only 1 foot, I believe.
Representative JENKINS. Only 1 foot. Now-

Colonel PARKER. Will you wait just a minute? Mr. Woodward said that he regards the normal level-he has been holding it down to 550, so that we are operating the thing now really actually using 6 feet for flood control.

Representative JENKINS. Well, in other words, he is using it now, you say. Let's see if I am right about this. Whenever you figure the head of water, storage of water, you classify it three ways, don't you, into three classifications, one is the steady water that you must have in order to run the turbines. You have to have so many feet. What do you term that?

Colonel PARKER. Prime power?

Representative JENKINS. Not prime power, but what do you term the water?

Colonel PARKER. Minimum flow.

Representative JENKINS. Yes; I guess that is what it is.

Colonel PARKER. Yes.

Representative JENKINS. The water has to be high enough toit has to be a certain height to give you the maximum power that you need, doesn't it?

Colonel PARKER. Yes, sir.

Representative JENKINS. Then you have to have a certain amount of footage that you keep for your own storage, you have computed the rainfall and the run-off, and you have got all or those computations and they are so many feet that you have got to have as your own storage, so that when it runs down gradually it will not run down before the next wet season and get below the necessary—what did you call it awhile ago, what was the word?

Colonel PARKER. Minimum level.

Representative JENKINS. Minimum level, yes; minimum level.
Colonel PARKER. Yes.

Representative JENKINS. In other words, you have your minimum level, and then you have so many feet of head that you figure from the rainfall, then above that so much for flood control. That figure on Wheeler Dam is 1 foot. Do you know what the figures on Pickwick are?

Colonel PARKER. I said "6 feet at Wheeler," according to our present operating schedule.

Representative JENKINS. Yes; but I say your present operating schedule will depend on the time of the season, and the proximity to

the rainy season. That is the reason you have more space than you need.

Colonel PARKER. I think you will be very much interested in this complete description of our operating program which Professor Woodward is going to give you. I think it would be much more satisfactory to consider that program as a unit, and let him describe the way the thing is developed, than to take it up piecemeal.

I am not trying to postpone consideration of it unreasonably, but we regard this operation almost as important as the construction. I mean this multiple-purpose operation of the entire valley program is something which is very essential to getting our economies out of it, and that therefore we have asked Professor Woodward when he gets on the stand here to describe to you just how that is being done now, and how we plan to do it.

Representative JENKINS. I want to ask you a question.
Colonel PARKER. It is really a highly technical matter.

Representative JENKINS. I am sure you know much more about it than I do, and we can talk about it a minute or two.

Assuming, as we have said before, for a proper utilization of these dams you must have a minimum level below which you cannot operate in safety and get your maximum of power of course, then you must have a head of water back of that, so many feet, and you determine that footage by the average rainfall and the run-off, the acres of territory from which the rain comes-you have that figure.

Now, at the beginning of the season, let's say after the spring rains, you have to see to it that you have got that full head of water to take up both footages, because you may have a long, dry summer; and you will say, "Well, now, our operating plan now is to keep the water up to the top, because we have got a long, dry spell ahead of us," but at this season of the year when you get near the wet season, you can say, "We have 10 feet less of storage, that we hold back for emergency purposes now, and you don't need to worry, we can give more footage to flood control."

But you must figure that flood control scientifically, like you have done the rest of it, and whenever you do it, you have 1 foot at Wheeler, 6 at Pickwick, and 1 at Guntersville, and you have got 14 feet at Norris, and you have 16 feet at Gilbertsville. Now, am I giving you improper figures?

Colonel PARKER. I wonder if I could just try to describe that operation in my own words, to see if it clarifies this.

Representative JENKINS. Is it any different?

Colonel PARKER. Perhaps if I stated in my own words it will help us to a common understanding.

There is in each reservoir a definite surcharge, a depth which we call a surcharge, which is reserved for flood control alone. That there is no question about. Below that there is a depth and volume which is devoted, we will say, to joint use. Now, again I don't intend to pose as a flood-control expert; this is just a general statement.

If we had a stream in which floods might occur at any time of the year, or conversely, at which it might be dry at any time of the year, it would be very difficult to make that volume available for joint