Mr. WOODWARD. I don't think that there were any independent departments that had any of these figures. We don't make this kind of figure ordinarily at this stage of the calculations. I have already told you that when they are finished we allocate them.

QUESTION OF COMPLETE FLOOD-CONTROL PROTECTION

Representative WOLVERTON. How much money do you contemplate spending between this time and the finish of the flood control of the Tennessee Valley?

Mr. WOODWARD. Well, that is out of my field, but I can just guess at it. That is about $30,000,000 or $35,000,000 a year for 5 or 6 yearsthat is a general impression of mine.

Representative WOLVERTON. Thirty or thirty-five million?

Mr. WOODWARD. Did you say for flood control or for the program?
Representative WOLVERTON. For flood control.

Mr. WOODWARD. About a quarter of that for flood control; I assume it is about in this general proportion.

Representative WOLVERTON. Do you contemplate an expenditure of those funds or in the completion of your flood-control program, the building of dams on any of the tributaries?

Mr. WOODWARD. In that program there are no more dams on the tributaries than the ones already finished or under construction.

Representative WOLVERTON. Are you of the opinion as the floodcontrol engineer of the T. V. A. that the completion of the dams that are now contemplated will give the Tennessee Valley flood protection? Mr. WOODWARD. Not complete satisfactory flood protection.

Representative WOLVERTON. How much more will it cost than what has been estimated to give it complete flood protection?

Mr. WOODWARD. I can just say, roughly, upwards toward $100,000,000.

Representative WOLVERTON. So that Congress at the present time hasn't been apprised of the ultimate cost of flood control in the Tennessee Valley within $100,000,000.

Mr. WOODWARD. That figure that I gave would include any power or navigation that would go with the flood control because we do not contemplate building reservoirs for flood control alone.

Representative WOLVERTON. Very well, we will put it this way: Then to give the Tennessee Valley complete flood protection it will necessitate the expenditure of approximately $100,000,000 more than has been reported to Congress up to the present time.

Mr. WOODWARD. Something of that order.

Representative WOLVERTON. Now, what could you think is necessary to be done to give complete flood protection that hasn't already been provided for, and which would be covered by this additional expenditure of $100,000,000?

Mr. WOODWARD. An expenditure at the city of Chattanooga and the building of at least three more reservoirs.

Representative WOLVERTON. Where would those reservoirs be, in your judgment.

Mr. WOODWARD. Well, I think at least one would be on the Holston River, and one on the French Broad River, but I can't express any definite preference for a third one. There might be four or five instead of three, and it depends upon very careful comparisons.

Representative WOLVERTON. How much of that $100,000,000 will have to be expended to give Chattanooga the flood protection that it seeks? In fact, all of these dam sites that you have mentioned are above Chattanooga, are they not?

Mr. WOODWARD. Yes.

Representative WOLVERTON. So that the whole $100,000,000 would have been spent somewhere between Norris Dam, or Knoxville, and Chattanooga?

Mr. WOODWARD. They would be.

Representative WOLVERTON. Either on the Tennessee River or on its tributaries.

Mr. WOODWARD. It would be on the tributaries, above Knoxville or outside of Knoxville, I would expect.

Representative WOLVERTON. Now, then, how much would be nec

essary

Mr. WOODWARD. But when you say how much would have to be expended, if all provision of power were to be omitted from these reservoirs, then it would not be necessary to spend so much money.

Representative WOLVERTON. How much would that be?

Mr. WOODWARD. This is pretty hasty estimating, but I would say probably half as much, perhaps more than that.

Representative WOLVERTON. So that $15,000,000 would cover the necessary things to be done to give full flood-control protection to the Tennessee Valley?

Mr. WOODWARD. I am informed that it would probably be more than half, but a considerable proportion of the expenditure that I first named would be for taking advantages for the production of power at those same dams.

Representative WOLVERTON. What area in square miles is now protected from flood by what has been completed up to the present time, by the Tennessee Valley Authority?

Mr. WOODWARD. That is a very hard kind of question to answer, because of course we are only a fraction completed.

Representative WOLVERTON. I will put it another way. How many square miles of territory are necessary to be protected from floods in the Tennessee Valley?

Mr. WOODWARD. That is about as hard to answer. If you mean the run-off, the floods that come from a certain area, then I can tell that area.

Representative WOLVERTON. That is what I have in mind.

Mr. WOODWARD. That is relatively simple. Norris Reservoir has a drainage area above it of just under 3.000 square miles, and Norris Reservoir absolutely controls, just as perfectly as anyone would want to do, all of the flood run-off from that area.

Hiwassee Reservoir will have above it a slightly less area than 1,000 square miles; and when the Hiwassee Dam is finished and in operation, then the flood run-off will be largely controlled, but not 100 percent controlled. We will need probably ultimately to have another reservoir on the Hiwassee River.

Representative WOLVERTON. So that you may have the picture before you that I am trying to get the facts with reference to, I want to know the number of square miles that needs flood protection, and

which the T. V. A. is supposed to supply. How much of it now has that flood protection and how much remains to be done?

Mr. WOODWARD. That is what I was afraid you were asking, because it is very hard to answer.

On the Clinch River, from the Norris Dam down to the mouth of the Emory River, which is a tributary of the Clinch, I think that we have perfect protection against flood damage along that river, but that width of land that we protect doesn't average more than a mile or two wide, and it is maybe 70 miles long, so that the actual area there in square miles is very small.

We don't do any flood protection up on the top of those ridges that you saw down there; that is only the valley bottom.

Representative WOLVERTON. I wish that I had before me the map that was shown to us at some time during these hearings; as I remember the map, it showed the whole Tennessee Valley, and it had colored areas on it indicating what areas were protected by particular dams, and I received the impression in looking at that map that there were very considerable areas that even the T. V. A. doesn't claim to have given any flood protection to up to the present time, and it is with reference to that that I am now endeavoring to get the facts.

While they are looking for that, let me ask another question just to get the topography of the ground before us for our future questions. The Norris Dam takes care of floods on the Clinch River, and only with respect to the Clinch River, does it not?

Mr. WOODWARD. That is correct; of course, it has tributaries above; there is another river that joins the Clinch River just above Norris Dam.

Representative WOLVERTON. Now, what is the next stream running into the Tennessee immediately below Norris; is that the Holston or the French Broad?

Mr. WOODWARD. The Holston and the French Broad come together just above Knoxville, and the Tennessee River name starts from there. The Clinch River comes into the Tennessee below Knoxville, by about 60 or 70 miles by river, much shorter distance by highway, at the town of Kingston, which is on a main highway.

Representative WOLVERTON. What has been done either on the Holston River or on the French Broad River, to protect Knoxville from floods that might arise on either of those two rivers?

Mr. WOODWARD. Nothing in our program has been done to protect Knoxville from floods from either of those two rivers.

Representative WOLVERTON. Of course, that would apply to any other towns all the way down the river, as far as Chattanooga, would it not?

Mr. WOODWARD. Well, the towns below the mouth of the Clinch River would get protection.

Representative WOLVERTON. They would get protection from the Norris Dam?

Mr. WOODWARD. Yes.

Representative WOLVERTON. But I am speaking of any flood waters that originate on the Holston River, or on the French Broad River, is there any protection to anybody from those until you get down to Chickamauga Dam?

Mr. WOODWARD. That is correct.

Representative WOLVERTON. How many miles is that?

Mr. WOODWARD. Just a minute. When Coulter Shoals and Watts Bar are built in between there, they will have some degree of protection. They are above Chickamauga, and below Knoxville.

Representative WOLVERTON. But they are not in existence at the present time.

Mr. WOODWARD. That is correct.

Representative WOLVERTON. Now, does Chickamauga Dam give any protection to Chattanooga?

Mr. WOODWARD. Yes; but only a small degree by itself, it must be combined with various other dams in order to be effective.

Representative WOLVERTON. I am assuming now at the present time that the T. V. A. having been in existence for 5 years, and having expended several hundred million dollars, I am trying to ascertain what has been done for the city of Knoxville, and the other cities that come on down to Chattanooga, or towns that happen to be on the river, to protect them from floods.

Mr. WOODWARD. We have only done what could be accomplished by adding what we have regarded as the reasonable control to the navigation dams.

Representative WOLVERTON. Now, is the Coulter Shoals Dams and the Watts Bar Dam a part of the $100,000,000 that you say will have to be expended to give full flood protection?

Mr. WOODWARD. No, sir; they are included in the 10-dam system that we have before.

Representative WOLVERTON. Now, in addition to the amounts that have been estimated as necessary for Coulter Dams and Watts Bar Dam to give protection to Chattanooga, there will have to be spent a large part of the $100,000,000 to give complete protection?

Mr. WOODWARD. To Chattanooga; that is correct.

Representative WOLVERTON. That will be by putting dams on tributaries of the Holston and French Broad and Little Tennessee?

Mr. WOODWARD. Very likely; at least one on the Little Tennessee and perhaps one on the Hiwassee and perhaps a dam on the smaller tributaries.

Representative WOLVERTON. If a flood should originate north of Chattanooga at the present time, how many feet of the flood would be eliminated by reason of the dams already constructed to the north and northeast of the river at Chattanooga?

Mr. WOODWARD. Well, of course, it would depend upon the nature of the flood. In 1936 the Norris Dam lowered the flood crest by 4 feet at Chattanooga. When Chickamauga is finished it will help the Norris Dam, and when Hiwassee is finished it will have some more effect. Representative WOLVERTON. What is the highest floodwater they have had at Chickamauga?

Mr. WOODWARD. At Chickamauga?

Representative WOLVERTON. I mean at Chattanooga.

Mr. WOODWARD. The highest, the 1867 flood, was 57 feet and a little more-57.9 feet.

Representative WOLVERTON. How much of that 57.9 feet would then be eliminated by reason of these dams already constructed?

Mr. WOODWARD. Well, I am advised that it would be probably 7 or 8 feet as a result of the Norris Dam, the Hiwassee Dam, and the Chickamauga Dam.

Representative WOLVERTON. About 7 feet?

Mr. WOODWARD. Yes, sir.

Representative WOLVERTON. How much would be eliminated by the construction of dams at Coulter Shoals and at Watts Bar Dams?

Mr. WOODWARD. We don't have any careful estimate, and we are a little hesitant about making these guesses; I would perhaps guess another foot, but—

Representative WOLVERTON. How high does the water have to be to cause damage in Chattanooga?

Mr. WOODWARD. Thirty feet is what the Weather Bureau calls flood stage.

Representative WOLVERTON. If you can have a rise of 30 feet without doing damage to Chattanooga

Mr. WOODWARD. That is the gage. The zero of the gage is supposed to be at about ordinary low water.

Representative WOLVERTON. If the peak flood in 1867 was 57.9 feet, and you have only provided by what is already constructed, and what you expect to construct, protection as against 7 or 8 feet, we will say 8 feet, why there is still nearly 50 feet that Chattanooga has to be protected against.

Mr. WOODWARD. That is correct, and we are recommending that they build a levee system now that high, or a little higher, so as to have a margin.

Representative WOLVERTON. Who is to carry the expense of the levee system, Chattanooga, as a city, or the T. V. A.?

Mr. WOODWARD. I think that the city is hoping that the United States Government will bear the expense.

Representative WOLVERTON. What is the estimated expense of a levee system to protect Chattanooga?

Mr. WOODWARD. Of the height that I mentioned, we estimated about $16,000,000.

Representative WOLVERTON. That would be in addition to the $100,

000,000?

Mr. WOODWARD. No; included in the $100,000,000.

Representative WOLVERTON. That is included in the $100,000,000. Mr. WOODWARD. I intended it to be included in the $100,000,000. Representative WOLVERTON. Coming back to my original question, how many square miles then at the present time have not been provided flood protection, that would cover the whole area, the Holston River area, the French Broad, the Little Tennessee, and the Hiwassee I don't know of any other, maybe you do, and you can consider them as part of the question.

Mr. WOODWARD. Well, I can't give it in square miles, we are interested usually in the value of the protection rather than the square miles. For example, in the city of Chattanooga, 6 or 10 square miles are now subject to flood, and the damage there would be more than all of the rest of the length of the river from Knoxville to Chattanooga, all the rest put together, so that we haven't estimated that in square miles.

Representative WOLVERTON. Probably I didn't make my question as clear as it should be. I didn't have in mind evidently the way you have taken it. I meant how many square miles of territory has to be protected by dams to give flood protection to those portions of the river that would ordinarily feel the effect of a flood?