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That is a Yurok responsibility, isn't it?

Mr. LARA. That's a Hoopa Reservation responsibility. That's the only government on the reservation. They should take control of it. Mr. MCCLOSKEY. If you leave that decision to the Court of Claims, it may be another 12 years. That is our only fear.

Mr. LARA. That is what I saying. Now, here we are. We are at the point of governments and we don't have this and we don't have that and what are we going to do about the fish?

I am still talking about this.

Mr. MCCLOSKEY. If you form a government then you can protect the fish.

Mr. LARA. Pardon me?

Mr. MCCLOSKEY. If you will form a government, then you can protect the fish.

Mr. LARA. We can protect the fishes right now, but we don't have any government to get into a economic development type of situation, but we are asking you to give us a waiver, some type of waiver or something to allow EDA or something to come in here and set us up these type things that we need; to better create enhancement.

Mr. MCCLOSKEY. Even at that, the EDA would have to cooperate with your tribal council and you won't form one of those.

Mr. LARA. You see, this is the pressure point that we are talking about.

You guys are using it to kill our programs.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. BREAUX. I recognize Mr. Williams.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Mr. Chairman, if I may address my comment? Mr. BREAUX. Yes, Mr. Williams.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I have one statement to Mr. McCloskey. He keeps continuing to refer-I have a lot of Indian people here who are misled.

We ask that commercial fishing be set aside and held in abeyance. We didn't say that we want to stop commercial fishing. If the court reporter didn't record what I requested, that's what I requested back there; that we stop commercial fishing-that it be held in abeyance at this time.

At such time as the river could afford such fishing, then that would be different.

Mr. MCCLOSKEY. That is exactly right.

Mr. WILLIAMS. All right, You have to instigate-to give my people the idea that I went around saying, you have to stop commercial fishing-I did not do that.

Mr. BREAUX. A moratorium, temporarily.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Correct, until we can see what Mr. Lara is talking about, the hatcheries, the streams. So that we can have some good fishing.

Because we would possibly like at some time in the future to engage in that endeavor of utilizing commercial fishing as an asset and a productive measure for our people.

Mr. MCCLOSKEY. I didn't mean to infer otherwise, Mr. Williams. Mr. WILLIAMS. All right.

Mr. MCCLOSKEY. But when you came back, Mr. Williams, Don Clausen had alone urged the Secretary to put a moratorium on

commercial fishing and the Secretary wouldn't do it and you came back to try to support that argument and you said, put a moratorim on and I introduced a bill to force them to stop commercial fishing and a month later he finally did put a moratorium on commercial fishing.

Now, everyone agrees-even the State of California, which legally feels it has the right to prohibit commercial fishing even by Indians from 1932-the State of California agrees that if we can restore that fishery and it can be commercially fished, that Indians should have the sole right of operating the commercial fishery. Everybody is in agreement with that.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Right.

Mr. MCCLOSKEY. And if we can once again restore this river to what it was in the 1920's, then you will have a commercial fishery and you will run it.

There shouldn't be these misunderstandings, believe me. I haven't run across any dishonorable people. I haven't run across any conspiracy.

I have run into an awful lot of good people pressing their positions strongly, But these aren't criminals. But they have been guilty of mismanagement in the past. They are not criminals. Mr. BREAUX. I think Mr. Van Pelt was about to make a comment.

Mr. VAN PELT. Yes.

As usual in this type of hearing, I think we are losing sight of what we are really striving for. Again, we get into the rights of people and I watch the rights of people for these many years and I am one for the environment-I am talking about those creatures that have nothing, no voice.

I know that these things have to be managed and I know the frustrations and everything the BIA and everybody else gets into. Now, I would like to respectfully submit this that we can never manage anything on the reservation, such as a fishery, and police that thing.

How would you feel if you were-I would not want to be a policeman on the river, policing the action up and down the river. I have been threatened for justing speaking like this. Now, I have faced an AK-47. Did you ever look at one of those things? Talk about your M-14's. These things are horrible.

Now, it would be an impossible situation to get somebody who has relatives, for instance, and everything to go out and arrest somebody.

You either wouldn't do it or if you did do it you would probably wind up with concrete shoes, or something like that.

Now, this is a fact. Now, I am not dodging any issues and I hope you people will take note of the fact that it has to be done by some impersonal organization or it won't be done at all.

This is what I have been beating my head against-for many years the people talk about the rights of our people, but I watch the dwindling resources; the deer, the fish and everything else. We are talking primarily about fish today and I don't have any gauges in the river or anything, but I watch the dwindling numbers every year.

OK. I watch the increasing number of gill nets. Now, this is a matter of—I mean, you educated people should know that you can go out there now-one man can start at Klamath and put out 10 nets up and down the river easily. No problem.

You know, this is an age when you can destroy something. This was not true in the days of my father or my grandfather. You wouldn't paddle a dugout more than a few miles.

And that was traditional fishing. Remember this, now, when you go back to Washington. They talk about traditional things. Remember back then with a dugout you wouldn't paddle more than a mile or two to set a net.

That's not your modern outboard-powered motorboat now. You can travel 40, 50 miles and set out a series of nets. That's not traditional anything. So, I want you gentlemen to please take note. If we don't-I think this was Mr. Gerard's idea. If we don't do it, please, somebody do it. I mean, this is-as I stand right here, we can argue politics, Mr. Williams.

And I agree with you. We should conclude this Jessie Short thing. You know, it's not our fault. It's somebody's, but they should do that.

If they are going to drag their feet and in the meantime, somebody do something for our resources. I mean, you know, it's nice to talk about enhancement-this and enhancement-that, but if we don't get any regulations enforced, there won't be anything anyway.

Mr. BREAUX. Mr. Van Pelt, thank you for those comments.
We have another panel.

Mr. Clausen?

Mr. CLAUSEN. Just one final question. It will not take long.
Mr. BREAUX. All right.

Mr. CLAUSEN. I frankly want to address this both to members of this panel-it only requires a "yes" or "no" answer.

I also want to address this question to Mr. Masten and any other group that wants to respond to this.

This relates to Mr. Gerard's testimony, again, where he was talking about assisting in the tribal organization effort and he says:

Since late last summer this matter has been given my highest priority and attention and regulations prescribing qualifications for the election of a Yurok interim government committee have now been published.

Other procedures governing the election process should be published before the end of the month. The election itself should be held late this summer, in August or September.

Do you expect any of your organization to be participating in that election?

Yes or no?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No.

Mr. CLAUSEN. All right.

Mr. KINNEY. No.

Mr. CLAUSEN. I see.

Is there anyone in this room right now who is going to be participating in that election?

[No response.]

Mr. CLAUSEN. There are quite a few members of the Indian community here in the room. Will any of you be participating in that election?

[No response.]

Mr. CLAUSEN. I want the record to show no response to my question.

How about from the Hoopa area, Mr. Masten?

Mr. MASTEN. We are not allowed to participate? Mr. Clausen. Mr. CLAUSEN. You are not allowed to participate?

I simply want the record to show, Mr. Chairman, that there is no one in the Indian community who will be participating in this proposed election.

Mr. KINNEY. Could you estimate how many people are here? Mr. CLAUSEN. I don't know how many are here.

Mr. BREAUX. I think Congressman Clausen can take a visual estimate.

This will have to be the last comment, because this panel has been on for over 2 hours.

Mr. LARA. I think it is very important that although we have been on for over 2 hours that you listen to us, Mr. Chairman. Mr. BREAUX. Well, I certainly am listening.

Mr. LARA. Now, the question was asked of whether we are going to participate in this. Myself, I will probably not participate in it, but I have to believe that you people are going to develop some type of a function that we can work with to develop and take care of the Klamath River and the problems already existing there. A month ago, 2 months ago, 3 months ago, we had a meeting over here and it was to talk about a committee to develop rules and regulations about fishing on the Hoopa Reservation.

OK. It was shot down to develop that committee, but at that particular time it was voted 100 percent that the Bureau of Indian Affairs take that responsibility and develop an enhancement program for the Klamath and Trinity Rivers.

We have-the Klamath River Wildlife Conservation Association has been pressuring, pushing, begging them to start doing something. They are too damn slow. We don't want to wait 3, 4 years. We need Congress-we need you guys to get on them so that they can come over here and we can see things happening, OK? That's what we need.

Mr. BREAUX. OK. Thank you for your comments.

Ms. RYERSON. Mr. Chairman, I have tried to speak a couple of times.

Mr. BREAUX. Well, you have really had some aggressive competition.

Go ahead.

Ms. RYERSON. When one of the men asked what we feel that the BIA should do, we-did you not ask that, Mr. Clausen?

Mr. CLAUSEN. That was my question, yes. I wanted you to write it out in depth. You don't have to answer it right now.

Ms. RYERSON. Well, I will write a letter, but I feel the BIA at this time-they have all the information there. They can find out who's an Indian, who is eligible and who is not and they can do it just within a short time, I'm sure, because they have all that information,

Then we have the Hoopa Reservation tribal council and all they have to do is recognize us as eligible and then just open their

council and then just accept us in and I can't see any problem with it.

Mr. BREAUX. Thank you.

Ms. RYERSON. And another thing that I would like to have the Congress do if possible is have a congressional investigation of the Bureau of Indian Affairs, a complete investigation.

And I think this would satisfy all our Indian people and I think it would be a good thing to do.

Thank you.

Mr. BREAUX. Thank you very much.

I want to thank this panel in particular for their presentations. You have all been very helpful.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Thank you, sir.

Mr. KINNEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. BREAUX. Our fifth panel today that I would like to welcome up is Ms. Bessie Munson and Mr. Norman Goodwin.

These two witnesses are representatives of the Karok Indian tribe.

Ms. Bessie Munson and Mr. Norman Goodwin, if you would like to approach the table and take a seat at the witness table, the committee would be happy to hear your testimony at this time. Mr. Goodwin, is Mr. Norman Goodwin in the audience?

[No response.]

Mr. BREAUX. How about Ms. Bessie Munson? Is she in the audience?

[No response.]

Mr. BREAUX. Neither one of them is here.

We have another witness who was on our witness list for this morning who was not here this morning and that is the district attorney from Del Norte County, Mr. Robert Weir.

Mr. Weir is still here, I take it? If you would take a seat at the witness table, we would be happy to receive your testimony.

STATEMENT OF ROBERT WEIR, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, DEL NORTE COUNTY, CALIF.

Mr. WEIR. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The letter I received indicated that three of the topics that might be covered included the regulations for the 1979 fishing season. Of course, my responsibility is to enforce State law. So, one of the biggest reasons that I have been involved in this controversy was because of this impasse between State and Federal law and the fact that the State, through its statutes, claims authority over commercial fishing, although subsistence fishing is already, by court decision, not a matter of State concern.

I have seen some very unusual circumstances which I don't believe exist now, because the 1979 regulations halt commercial fishing and therefore, Federal and State laws are in harmony and for that reason my job is simpler and my position is clarified, for at least as long as regulations remain as they are.

In that vein I say that the 1979 regulations are necessary at least for the temporary period as a conservation measure. I would say that on the whole they are good regulations, with one possible exception. That is that they are intended to regulate commercial

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