By contractual relations we tried to be absolutely neutral in determining and evaluating these people, but as I say, God Himself could not do it, and it is sure the agents can't do it; so as the result there has been a duplication of costs, waste, extravagance, for that number of people, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. And there has been a lot of loss of employment to the men.

Mr. STEELE. A loss of employment and in our case it is a great burden to us and to the producers.

Mr. MCCANN. Let's hear it, then.

Mr. STEELE. We have conferences with the Conference of Studio Unions; we have conferences of contracts with the IATSE. So, whereas, the majors went blithely on their road with only the one faction, we have two factions-both factions trying to jell and work those fellows together, which is an utter impossibility.

Mr. MCCANN. I understand that these make-up artists in the studios, if a person goes below the Adam's apple in making them up, it calls for a new artist for the work above the Adam's apple. Is that the situation you have applying to your studio effects there-it takes one man to do one little bit and another man to do something else? Mr. STEELE. Yes; I can tell you, counsel, things we have been confronted with. We have that very case.

Mr. MCCANN. That is what we want here. We want to know. Tell us the problem that you have. Go right ahead.

Mr. STEELE. Well, it is so damn ridiculous-pardon the expression

Mr. KEARNS. Let's refrain from all this.

Mr. STEELE. All right. It is so ridiculous, I beg your pardon. For instance, take a case a while back. We had a work stoppage which involved one board, a 1 by 12 piece, 3 feet long, requiring four nails. Two factions claimed the nailing down of those four nails, so I said, "Well, go ahead, boys, you nail them down." The boys went ahead with their hammer and they did the job, and then I brought the laborers in and tore out those four nails and said to the other faction, to put those same four nails back in if they could find them. We have those things, too numerous to mention. We just have all kinds of things.

I am holding a brief for neither side. We try to stay neutral. We get the front wall this week done by one side and we will say, "That is O. K. Next week we will hand it to the other side." They keep closing in closer and closer all the time while they are holding their jurisdictional fights there. It is not their cost, it is our cost. Mr. MCCANN. How much does it cost you in the way of additional expense to operate your studio because of the jurisdictional dispute in the studio? Can you give that in dollars and cents?

Mr. STEELE. Well, we prided ourselves-we used to pride ourselves on budgeting studio costs. Now, you can put down a question mark and you will come just as close as you will by figuring. One recent job we ran, I think we ran 180 percent of our estimate, and I was discussing that at the producers association meeting with some of the major producers and they said, "You are squawking because you ran 180 percent. God, man, we run 1,200 and 1.300 percent." Here are the same fellows that used to budget and hit it on the nose. Now they can't even hit the ear.

Mr. MCCANN. How is this going to come out, do you know? Mr. STEELE. I think the only relief lies with you fellows in Congress. I think it is not likely-I have a lot of friends on both sides-I hope I have and I think they are-but I don't think it is likely to be settled by the agents here, or by the members here, or even the A. F. of L. headquarters.

Mr. McCANN. Can you tell me why it is that the international presidents of these unions have not been able to settle jurisdictional disputes in the past?

Mr. STEELE. I took that up with one of the agents for one of the locals here, and, of course, he bounced it right back at me, and I might answer the same to you. The United States government was unable to do anything about the gambling ship out here in the harbor, that is when it first started. He says, "Why do you ask me?" So I says, "Why don't you fellows discipline this outfit and give us some relief?" He says, "The A. F. of L. has ramifications and has local set-ups that are almost comparable to the United States Government," and he says, "Why don't you tell me why the Government doesn't get rid of Tony Carnero's ship out there?" "Well, I couldn't answer that.

Mr. MCCANN. Was it within the corporate limits of the city of Los Angeles?

Mr. STEELE. They afterward got rid of it. I don't know where it

was.

Mr. MCCANN. Los Angeles got rid of it?

Mr. STEELE. No; the Federal Government.

Mr. MCCANN. If you stick around with the Federal Government, they will get you in the long run.

Mr. STEELE. Yes; but we will be dead before that.

Mr. MCCANN. They got this outfit, though; didn't they?

Mr. STEELE. Yes.

Mr. MCCANN. You know Al Capone ran along a little while, but they finally got Al Capone.

Mr. STEELE. They always get them, probably, but some of us might not be there.

Mr. MCCANN. They will get your studio if we don't do something.

Mr. STEELE. We are now in what we call a stage of curtailment of production. We have run steadily for a number of years, but right now we are standing off.

Mr. MCCANN. In other words, the situation has developed to such an extent that your studio is reducing its output?

Mr. STEELE. It is impossible to make what would be known as class

B pictures under the present set-up.

Mr. MCCANN. And that means a reduction of employment?

Mr. STEELE. Absolutely.

Mr. MCCANN. And less income for your studio and less for everybody.

Mr. STEELE. The grosses-if you don't make things and don't sell them, there is nothing coming in.

Mr. MCCANN. Have you any other specific instances you would like to give the committee, or other comment to make as to these jurisdictional battles?

Mr. STEELE. Oh, I don't know. Well, we had one last year, talking about "featherbedding." I think we have a very great case of "fea

therbedding" when they put the set erectors in there. We wanted to extend a little friendship and felt it would be well worth while for us to let it go, but it is not working out. They are sending everything in on me. One of Brewer's agents, he said, "Fred, we don't like the superintendent you have."

I said, "Why, he is a conference man.'

He said, "Never mind, you fellows must get a superintendent from the IATSE."

I said, "O. K., what is the answer?"
He said, "We will get you a man."
I said, "We have got a man."

He said, "We will get you a man."

We went through the formalities. He sent down three chaps and we interviewed them, and we didn't care to hold two of them, and one of them we kept, pretty bad. In the meantime we got to talking it over and we decided we would advance one of our own boys to the job, which we did, and we had a call from the set erectors' agent who said the set erectors were going out.

I said, "Why, what is the trouble?"

He says, "You double-crossed us. You didn't put our man in." So we had to start a picture-we are in the business of producing pictures-so I said, "Come on down." We talked it over and I put it up to the management, and they had to bow to it, although we had no more need for the man than I have for two wives. So I said, "How much salary will we have to pay?" And he put down a figure of $250, and I put down $200-that was all I was authorized to give, so we agreed to that. Well, while the chap was sitting in my office I got a call there was trouble on the set. I called in the set erector foreman, who was a wholly incapable man, was another reason, and I went out and questioned some of the men, and when I walked away the boys said, "Well, Fred, the men like you," and I went in and called his hand on it, and we discussed the matter, so I went back in to Brewer's agent and this new chap was there, and I said, "Ted, this man is not so clever; he has a chance with several other studios." Ted says, "No; he stays."

So I just turned to this new chap and said, "Well, Harry, you are hired. Your first assignment is to get out there and take care of this thing. That is part of your job." I said, "I am washing my hands of the business." The chap is still there and so is that extra man at $200 a week.

Mr. MCCANN. Any questions, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. KEARNS. Did you hear Mr. Chadwick's statement and his testimony this morning?

Mr. STEELE. Oh, yes. I am associated with Mr. Chadwick.

Mr. KEARNS. Were his figures pertaining to the American Federation of Musicians contracts similar to yours?

Mr. STEELE. His figures are absolutely right. Mr. Chadwick speaks truthfully, and everything he speaks there is absolutely right. I might add one thing about how it works out on us. Now, if you are going to pay 21 musicians $133 a week, there has to be some way to get it if there are no pictures shooting. But that don't interest Mr. Petrillo. He says this is it, so some way has to be found to put up the money. When we shoot, in the recording sessions, ordinarily we

have that money for them, but in the meantime there is no money. If you are not shooting pictures, there is no money there.

Mr. KEARNS. There is no work, either?

Mr. STEELE. There is no work, but the point there, that presented a problem to Monogram. In other words, we had a "two grand" a week guaranty to meet for these fellows, and maybe, as Mr. Chadwick says, the 520 hours will never be absorbed, so we have to pay the guaranty, unless the other producers that are in our organization should use up enough of it to leave us some residue of that, but we pay it.

Mr. KEARNS. In other words, that is your quota.

Mr. STEELE. We have to pay it, and it is not always easy to get the $3,000 a week to pay these boys' salary.

Mr. KEARNS. If you are not shooting you have no use for music? Mr. STEELE. No; and the recording of music is of a spasmodic

nature.

Mr. KEARNS. As I understand it, this contract you have is for a minimum of 520 hours.

Mr. STEELE. Yes.

Mr. KEARNS. This is the first time you have had this contract? Mr. STEELE. Yes; they came to this contract system last year. Mr. KEARNS. Wouldn't you say there is a possibility it is more or less of a trial contract to see how it will work out, and maybe at the expiration of your contract they will have a criterion to work on and will be able to change to hours that will be more suitable to you? Mr. STEELE. Well, I don't see where they are

Mr. KEARNS. You see, you are not going to absorb the same hours all during the tenure of your contract, and then they would not insist on your having a contract with that number of hours.

Mr. STEELE. You mean Mr. Petrillo wouldn't insist? I have never heard anything to the contrary.

Mr. MCCANN. Mr. Chairman, I am afraid you don't know Mr. Petrillo if you think he would not insist on that.

Mr. KEARNS. You see, that is questionable, Mr. Counsel. After all it is a possibility, it appears to me, that they are trying to work out some basis for a contract. You have to look at both sides of the picture.

Mr. STEELE. Let's take that assumption. Then how did they arrive at the idea that we needed 20 musicians as a basis?

Mr. KEARNS. That is highly questionable. I still say every producer should have his right to his residue over what he had undertaken

Mr. STEELE. Of course, we don't have to use those 20, but we are paying for 20, and we often use more than 20 on a big picture, but there is no limitation of this cost by that.

Mr. KEARNS. How many men are the larger studios required to have?

Mr. STEELE. I think theirs is 50, a 50-piece orchestra. Different studios are different, I guess, some have 50 and some 46. It depends on the studios; nothing specified.

Mr. KEARNS. What I am getting at, though, is the hour basis. That sounds to me like that number was just grabbed out of the air someplace.

Mr. STEELE. Probably Mr. Petrillo has the answer. I don't.
Mr. KEARNS. Do you have any further questions, counsel?

Mr. MCCANN. Just one further question. How long is Monogram going to run under these circumstances?

Mr. STEELE. In all fairness to you, I should make this thing clear: We are now in negotiation with all crafts asking for special concessions or special categories, special concessions for those customers that make the B pictures occasionally, or small westerns. The total costs on those have increased about 180 percent, and salaries anywhere from 60 to 100 percent in a 5-year period, so we have to have special categories or all these pictures will go out of existence and the market will be flooded with reissues and nothing new will be produced.

Mr. KEARNS. Mr. Steele, you consider yourself a small businessman? Mr. STEELE. Yes, indeed. We do make our pictures, a million and a half, but we specialize in small pictures, although now we are trying to go into a better class, and as I say, we make a-million-and-a-half pictures now, but still try to make little ones for this market.

Mr. McCANN. If you don't get a contract worked out with these different unions and with these different organizations and so forth so that you can make a living at it, are you going to quit operating?

Mr. STEELE. There is no other alternative. You don't stay in business for your health.

Mr. MCCANN. A I understand it, your contract with the musicians does operate for 2 years; is that correct?

Mr. STEELE. Yes.

Mr. MCCANN. Suppose you ceased tomorrow; you would have to pay them for 2 years?

Mr. STEELE. I don't know where the money would come from. That is a legal question.

Mr. MCCANN. That is a legal question. In other words, I just wondered if there was anything in the contract that protected you against

Mr. STEELE. I think, as Mr. Churchill said, "There will always be an England." I think there will always be a Monogram in some form or other. We have met those problems before, of course. We have met them and we will meet them.

Mr. MCCANN. As you might say, you met them through blood, sweat, and tears.

Mr. STEELE. And gray hairs.

Mr. MCCANN. Thank you very much.

Mr. KEARNS. How many more witnesses have you?

Mr. MCCANN. May I ask if there are any more witnesses that I have failed to call here and that were subpenaed for 3 o'clock yesterday afternoon? Mr. Fishman.

TESTIMONY OF ED FISHMAN, FORMER ORCHESTRA BOOKING

AGENT

(The witness was duly sworn.)

Mr. MCCANN. Please state your name and your address.

Mr. FISHMAN. Ed Fishman, 6548 Sunset Boulevard, Hollywood 28. Mr. MCCANN. What business are you engaged in or have you been. engaged in for the past few years?