That is all, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. Mr. Virgil Guffin.

TESTIMONY OF VIRGIL GUFFIN, MUSICIAN, EARL CARROLL THEATER

(The witness was duly sworn.)

Mr. MCCANN. Please state your name and your address.

Mr. GUFFIN. Virgil Guffin, 3119 Atwater Avenue, Los Angeles. Mr. MCCANN. How long have you lived out here, sir?

Mr. GUFFIN. About 12 years.

Mr. MCCANN. What is your business or occupation?
Mr. GUFFIN. Musician.

Mr. MCCANN. What do you play?

Mr. GUFFIN. Saxophone, clarinet, oboe.

Mr. MCCANN. Did you say three things or one thing?

Mr. GUFFIN. Three.

Mr. MCCANN. Where are you employed now, Mr. Guffin?
Mr. GUFFIN. Earl Carroll's Theater Restaurant.

Mr. MCCANN. How long have you been employed there?

Mr. GUFFIN. Two years and a half.

Mr. MCCANN. What hours do you work there?

Mr. GUFFIN. From 8:45 to 1:45.

Mr. MCCANN. How many days a week?

Mr. GUFFIN. Six days.

Mr. MCCANN. And what is your compensation?

Mr. GUFFIN. $120 a week.

Mr. MCCANN. Where did you work before working for Earl Carroll?

Mr. GUFFIN. Well, I worked lots of places. Any particular places? Mr. MCCANN. Just before you worked for Earl Carroll, the last

one.

Mr. GUFFIN. Just before, I worked at the Morocco Cafe.
Mr. MCCANN. Is that in Los Angeles?

Mr. GUFFIN. That is Hollywood. It is on Vine Street.

Mr. MCCANN. How many days a week did you work there?

Mr. GUFFIN. Five.

Mr. MCCANN. How long did you work there?

Mr. GUFFIN. Oh, 6 weeks.

Mr. MCCANN. What was the rate of your compensation?
Mr. GUFFIN. $72 a week.

Mr. MCCANN. What was the job you had before that?

Mr. GUFFIN. A little roadside cafe out on San Fernando Road; I have forgotten the name of the place, even.

Mr. MCCANN. And how long were you idle between the time that you worked the 6 weeks at this Morocco Cafe and the last one that you worked for before that?

Mr. GUFFIN. None at all.

Mr. MCCANN. You don't remember the name of that other place, but how long did you work there?

Mr. GUFFIN. I was there about 3 months; Rock Cafe, I think it is— Rockaway, or something like that.

Mr. MCCANN. What was your rate of compensation there?
Mr. GUFFIN. $60 per week.

Mr. MCCANN. And that was in the 6 months' period before you began working for Earl Carroll.

Mr. GUFFIN. That is right.

Mr. MCCANN. And you get $120 a week at Earl Carroll's?

Mr. GUFFIN. Not when I first started; no, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. How much did you get when you first started?

Mr. GUFFIN. $88.

Mr. MCCANN. How long did that continue?

Mr. GUFFIN. Oh, a little over a year. I will say about 14 months.
Mr. MCCANN. Was that because it was frozen during the war?
Mr. GUFFIN. That is right.

Mr. MCCANN. And when it was not frozen, then you jumped to $120?
Mr. GUFFIN. Not immediately after; no, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. What did you jump to?

Mr. GUFFIN. One hundred; and that was not immediately after the either.

war,

Mr. MCCANN. Then you jumped to $120.

Mr. GUFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. So, from the standpoint of financial remuneration, you are pretty well pleased with the job out there?

Mr. GUFFIN. Oh, yes.

Mr. MCCANN. Do you have any complaints against the treatment that you receive at the hands of Mr. Carroll?

Mr. GUFFIN. Not up until March of this year. He has been very nice.

Mr. MCCANN. Not up until March.

Mr. GUFFIN. That is right.

Mr. MCCANN. That was the time the order provided 16, or the order provided 13?

Mr. GUFFIN. Something like that, yes, sir, came up.

Mr. MCCANN. There wasn't any personal dispute with you, was there?

Mr. GUFFIN. No, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. You were not losing your job, were you?

Mr. GUFFIN. No, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. It was a question of somebody being taken out of the
orchestra, or of three men being taken out of the orchestra, wasn't it?
Mr. GUFFIN. Well, I think it was something like that; yes, sir.
Mr. MCCANN. Where were you born and raised, sir?

Mr. GUFFIN. I was born in Indiana and raised in New Mexico.
Mr. MCCANN. You were born in Indiana and raised in New Mexico?

Mr. GUFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. Did you ever employ anybody?

Mr. GUFFIN. No, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. You never were an employer?

Mr. GUFFIN. No, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. Do you believe in our American system of economy? Mr. GUFFIN. To some degree, I do; yes, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. And some degree you don't?

Mr. GUFFIN. That is right.

Mr. MCCANN. Tell us what is wrong with our system of economy. Mr. GUFFIN. Well, I really haven't analyzed it that much. I guess I haven't gone into

Mr. MCCANN. Do you believe a person who owns a thing is entitled to its use?

Mr. GUFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. Do you believe that a person who employs someone is entitled to loyal service?

Mr. GUFFIN. I do, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. Do you believe that a person who is going to employ someone is entitled to select the person that he employs?

Mr. GUFFIN. If he is capable; yes, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. If he is capable. Is Earl Carroll capable of picking good musicians?

Mr. GUFFIN. That I wouldn't know, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. You wouldn't know?

Mr. GUFFIN. No, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. You worked out there 22 years.

Mr. GUFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. Do you know how long he has been in the show business?

Mr. GUFFIN. Approximately 20 years, I should say.

Mr. MCCANN. If anybody should know anything about picking good musicians, he ought to, hadn't he?

Mr. GUFFIN. Well, I don't know, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. You don't know?

Mr. GUFFIN. No.

Mr. MCCANN. Well, who picked you?

Mr. GUFFIN. Mr. Ward Archer and Mr. Manny Strand, both.

Mr. MCCANN. Does Mr. Ward Archer know a good musician when he sees one?

Mr. GUFFIN. I should think he would. He has been in this 35 or 40 years.

Mr. MCCANN. He beats drums, doesn't he?

Mr. GUFFIN. Long enough, anyway.

Mr. MCCANN. Would you say the fact that he beats drums makes him a better judge of a good musician than a man who has written some songs, maybe good and maybe bad?

Mr. GUFFIN. I would think so; yes, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. You would think it would?
Mr. GUFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. Than a man who has been in the theater business for many years?

Mr. GUFFIN. Well

Mr. MCCANN. Now then, do you believe that Mr. Carroll should have the right to run his own business?

Mr. GUFFIN. Yes, sir; everybody should have the right to run their own business.

Mr. MCCANN. You think he should?

Mr. GUFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. Do you believe that he should have the right to determine how many employees he should have?

Mr. GUFFIN. I couldn't say on that.

Mr. MCCANN. Do you like to work at Earl Carroll's Theater?

Mr. GUFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. You want to continue working there?

Mr. GUFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. Were you in the parking lot during the strike of June 10?

Mr. GUFFIN. No, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. You were not out there?

Mr. GUFFIN. I walked across it, but I wasn't in it.

Mr. MCCANN. You didn't stay in the parking lot with the others? Mr. GUFFIN. No, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. You struck on June 10?

Mr. GUFFIN. June 10, yes; that is right.

Mr. MCCANN. Did you hear Mr. Carroll talk to Mr. Archer and to the boys there?

Mr. GUFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. Did you hear Mr. Carroll asking to arbitrate the controversy with the union?

Mr. GUFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. Did you hear Mr. Archer refuse to do it?

Mr. GUFFIN. No, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. Didn't Mr. Archer refuse to promise that?

Mr. GUFFIN. There wasn't a word said that I heard.

Mr. MCCANN. Not a word said. You recall that Mr. Carroll asked that the controversy be arbitrated?

Mr. GUFFIN. That is right.

Mr. MCCANN. And you don't recall one word said by Mr. Archer. Mr. GUFFIN. Nobody said a word that I can recall.

Mr. MCCANN. Not even Mr. Archer.

Mr. GUFFIN. No, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. He didn't refuse?

Mr. GUFFIN. No, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. He didn't accede?

Mr. GUFFIN. No, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. You understand what arbitration is, don't you?
Mr. GUFFIN. I think so; yes, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. That is where two people who can't get along and make up their minds as to matters of controversy have a disinterested person to determine the issue.

Mr. GUFFIN. That is right.

Mr. MCCANN. Do you believe in that principle?

Mr. GUFFIN. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. MCCANN. You do, and you didn't say anything that night.

Mr. GUFFIN. No, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. If you believed in that principle, why didn't you say something when the proposition was made there to arbitrate?

Mr. GUFFIN. Because I didn't think there was anything to arbitrate. Mr. MCCANN. You didn't think there was?

Mr. GUFFIN. No.

Mr. MCCANN. Well, Mr. Carroll thought there was a question to arbitrate; didn't he?

Mr. GUFFIN. I think he did.

Mr. MCCANN. And he thought it was something you should do if he wanted it; is that it?

Mr. GUFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. You had a different point of view from him, so you didn't think there was anything to arbitrate in what he wanted to do.

Mr. GUFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. When do you have a situation where arbitration is proper, then?

Mr. GUFFIN. Well, when there is cause for arbitration.

Mr. MCCANN. And if you considered there was good cause, you would be willing to arbitrate?

Mr. GUFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. That is all.

Mr. Rene Williams.

TESTIMONY OF RENE WILLIAMS, VIOLINIST, EARL CARROLL THEATER

(The witness was duly sworn.)

Mr. MCCANN. What is your name and your address?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Rene Williams, 1652 Golden Gate Avenue, Los Angeles.

Mr. MCCANN. Your position or occupation?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I am a musician, violinist.

Mr. MCCANN. How many years have you played the violin, sir? Never mind, you don't have to answer that.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, a long time.

Mr. MCCANN. I didn't mean to get into your age. You have been a violinist of several years' standing?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. How long have you worked for Mr. Earl Carroll? Mr. WILLIAMS. I am going on my fourth year at Mr. Carroll's theater.

Mr. MCCANN. Are you a professional violinist and a member of the American Federation of Musicians?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I am a life member here. That means 35 years in one local, and that is about it, yes.

Mr. MCCANN. You say a life member here?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I am a life member.

Mr. MCCANN. Where did you work before working for Mr. Carroll ? Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I worked at KFWB radio station, and in fact I still work for it, and I have been at the station for 11 years now. Before that for KHJ for 3 years, for the Raymond Page Theater program, or for such programs.

Mr. MCCANN. Prior to taking this employment with Mr. Earl Carroll, what was your rate of compensation?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the station we were on short hours there. We only worked about 12 hours a week there, and the pay is $70 a week for that.

Mr. MCCANN. Was that the only employment you had at that time? Mr. WILLIAMS. At that time; yes.

Mr. MCCANN. Prior to coming to Mr. Carroll?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Except for occasional broadcasts that would come up over at NBC or something like that, but nothing steady.

Mr. MCCANN. Did you have steady employment in the work where you got $70 a week?