Mr. KEARNS. Mr. Carroll, you understand as a good American citizen, which you are, when there is a congressional investigation we try to be as fair as possible?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.

Mr. KEARNS. I realize that, in the opinion of people who attend these hearings, some of them may say you are fair and some may not say you are fair. We have no way of determining what might be in other people's minds. I remember you coming to Washington and I remember how deeply the minds of the 25 men who were sitting at that hearing were impressed with your testimony.

I speak for the minority, too, as well as the majority at that hearing. I mean, it was not just the majority interest, and we were rather astounded, due to the fact that this condition existed out here, and I never dreamed that day that I would ever be here listening to all the facts as I have here.

You have been a businessman all your life, since you had had a few dollars to go into business. You have no doubt made money and you no doubt have lost money, and you are typical of the American who is responsible for the growth of this country, because you are willing to venture capital. We must have men who are willing to venture capital if we are going to have employment in America, and those men must not be penalized. They may do wrong things. Mr. Carroll will make mistakes, we all make mistakes, but we can't unduly penalize someone because we get orders to do so, not in the United States of America. I have been out on several of these probes, and you know I feel very badly-it affects me greatly to know that in this great country of ours that we have to have disputes arising that are really uncalled for, and when we think of the international picture and how we are striving for peace all over the world, but here, right in our own back yard where we rub shoulders every day, and John knows Ed and Mary knows Elizabeth, we have freedom of worship, we did have freedom to work, the right to work, yet we find disagreements.

I went out to Mr. Carroll's theater last evening and I told the contractor, the band, and the business agent I wanted to go out and see the show and hear the music, and I enjoyed it. I was really taken off my feet with that production last night, and I want to say that I was very much impressed with the orchestra and the way the boys played under this good leader over here and the marvelous show that was produced, and the atmosphere of the entire place. My, you could write a book about it-it would make a wonderful movie. The whole world could see Mr. Carroll's show instead of just the few people who have the opportunity to come to Hollywood.

In this case, I would say-in fact, all the hearings that we have had they seem to be purely a disagreement in a matter of principle; that must be worked out.

Yesterday at noon I saw the barn that the first movie in Hollywood was made in, and I heard what they rented that barn for, and then I had an opportunity of seeing the prize picture of the movie industry the way it is now. It grew from a barn to a great, great industry. Why? Because of venture capital. You wanted to put money into a business to employ people and have a happy existence and a happy life for everyone.

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Of course we have unions. I am for unions. I believe in unions. Unions have done a lot for industry, done a lot for their personnel, have corrected a lot of evils that we have had, but I am against, as I have said to the members very often, I am against certain leaders of unions. I am against any person who is a dictator. I like collective bargaining. I think a man should have a hearing, if he makes a mistake. Most of us are big-hearted and if somebody knocks at our back door and asks for shelter and for food, we will give it to them.

But, Mr. Carroll, we can't have men in business who will not be considerate of the men who work for them, neither can we have men who work for an employer not be considerate of the employer. You are no small industry here, yet you are listed as a small businessman really, and it would be a very sad situation if you should close down your business. I don't think any member of your cast or any of the boys in the band or anyone else wants to see you go out of business. I do feel that you, as an employer, are absolutely correct in requesting that you have the privilege of bargaining with the men who work with you.

You have the right to sit at a conference table and discuss matters of personnel with these men. They should compare notes with you and do it in the right manner.

And so, before you leave the stand, Mr. Carroll, I want you to know that I know you have been through a lot and I know you have really suffered from this situation, and a lot of other people have; maybe the boys on the other side have suffered some, too. You are a big man and that is why I can ask you this question for the record: We would like very much to have this matter settled, and for you, a great producer, to give employment to people and keep this entertainment worth something wouldn't you?

Mr. CARROLL. I would if I can do it under conditions that, if I may explain that to you-if it seems harsh, I would like to have you correct me-but I would like to say in this courtroom that on August 31, no matter how business is, good or bad, I refuse to look down into that pit any more and see three men whom I didn't hire. I refuse to have Carl Cooper conspiring with the musicians' union. They have nothing in common with the musicians, and if those musicians ever get out of that place I will never open again.

Once you lose, that is the end of it. I must be punished, irrespective of innocence or guilt, by this leader, so, Mr. Chairman, if I am permitted, I would like to say how I would like to remain open, then if these gentlemen from the union here want to talk with me, I would like them to state so.

Mr. KEARNS. I have no objection, Mr. Carroll. Any objection, Mr. Counsel?

Mr. MCCANN. No, indeed. I think we ought to hear what conditions would be acceptable to him. We have heard from the union what they have demanded and what their procedure has been. And now I think we ought to hear from management, what he would require if he does any further business with them. I think I would like to hear it, wouldn't you?

Mr. KEARNS. Proceed.

Mr. CARROLL. I would like to have the opportunity to hire as many people as I think I can afford to pay. I would like to have all controversies decided under the rules of the American Society of Arbitra

Mr. MCCANN. In other words, he was talking for the stage hands' salaries?

Mr. LONG. That is right.

Mr. MCCANN. And asking that you increase their salaries proportionately as you had increased the musicians' under their letter of February 4?

Mr. LONG. That is right, and if Mr. Petrillo didn't say give the boys that, Mr. Cooper wouldn't say give the boys that. We have had, at the same time in that negotiation we have had for 2 years an engineer, one engineer, treat him in the theater as a mechanic. He is an A. F. of L. man. He said for 2 years he has negotiated so you will have two men in here instead of one. I said, "Why two? I can't find enough for one to do. What is the idea? Why is it?"

He said, "Well, our fellows are using trucks, so you must have two men."

I met with those men about 10 times over a period of time and Mr. Smith from the labor council came up. I said, "Mr. Smith, if you tell me I must have this man, too, I will put the man on."

They couldn't do it up to that time. He said, "I want Mr. Carroll here with this man to discuss putting him on."

I said to Mr. Carroll, “Well, let's put the man on. There is nothing for the man to do. Nothing in that."

I am sorry; I'm a little nervous and I am angry, and it is mighty serious to me.

Well, I will touch on Mr. Klein, a good friend of mine and a fine fellow, probably the best negotiator they have; he is fair, always been fair. He has never come to me-he could have come to me and we would have made a deal. Unfortunately I don't think Harry has authority.

Mr. MCCANN. Let's get down to the time since the strike when Mr. Carroll came back from Washington and there was a meeting held on May 28 in the union headquarters with J. K. Wallace and Lee MacQuarrie and Harry Long and Earl Carroll and John teGroen and Charles L. Bagley. Were you there?

Mr. LONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. Have you heard the testimony of Mr. Carroll on the stand as to what was said by Mr. Carroll and what was said by Mr. Wallace?

Mr. LONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. Can you corroborate the testimony of Mr. Carroll on those points?

Mr. LONG. I will corroborate every word, but there are a couple of things that he didn't get in.

Mr. MCCANN. What else did you hear?

Mr. LONG. On our departure Mr. Carroll says, "Now, is there any way" he says, "Supposing I forget Washington and I take these three men out, will you take those three men out and not force me to pay them, and we can handle the rest of the affairs, perhaps."

Wallace says, "Not a chance."

Mr. MCCANN. Now, what has happened since that time?

Mr. LONG. Since that time people have been rather nice to me, I am sorry to say-or I am glad to say-even if Mr. MacQuarrie was very nice. As a matter of fact, Mr. Carroll came over to see Fulton Lewis.

down, we will probably have to get Mr. Carroll." He said, "Come over and we will see."

Mr. Carroll got up out of a sickbed and went down and saw the board or saw Mr. MacQuarrie, I guess, and Mr. Wallace, I wasn't with him, and he says, "We will take it up with the board at the next board meeting," and I think he said Monday, as Mr. Carroll related to me. Monday Mr. MacQuarrie, or Tuesday, Mr. Carroll, it was Tuesday, Mr. MacQuarrie called me and said, "We are taking it up with the board."

I said, "Look, I know how you folks do." Personally I have been in Los Angeles 10 years and haven't ever seen the board. Mr. MacQuarrie said that definitely they had a board member, and next he says, "What does Mr. Carroll say?"

I says, "Well, Mr. Carroll didn't feel very well, so he left." So Mr. MacQuarrie, he says, "What is your decision?"

I said, "There is no decision; the men don't work." This was at 6:30-4:30, he called me up at my home and I said "Mr. Carroll said no, the three men were not going to work." At 6:30 Mr. MacQuarrie called me and said, "I am sending those men anyway," he says, "You will pay them.”

So I discussed it with Mr. Carroll. Mr. Carroll says, "We want music, and we will see what happens." The musicians played another week, not knowing whether they were going to get a nickel at the end of the week. I don't think they got a nickel. I don't know. Mr. Klein came to me and said, "Harry, why didn't you call me in before?"

I says, "Dave, you talked to Mr. Carroll on the phone. Why didn't you do something?"

He said, "I can straighten this out." I said, "All right, straighten it out."

He said-now, in between this time Fulton Lewis, I believe, went on the air and came in the theater to see Mr. Carroll. I told Mr. Carroll myself, I said, “Mr. Lewis is in the theater and wanted to say hello to you."

Mr. Carroll sat down with Mr. Lewis probably a matter of an hour. The next day Mr. Lewis went on the air and gave us a fine talk, the only person we had heard of in a long time that was on our side.

With Ward Archer that evening there was a crowd buzzing around, business agents were around Mr. Archer. Mr. Archer passed the theater, passed the stage door very angry, Mr. Archer. I have never seen him angry. Mr. Archer was very angry. He says, "He should never have done this. He should never had done this to the union. He should never go to Washington."

In the meantime we had received a wire from Mr. Hartley-he said it should never have happened-well, this is what I have scribbled here.

At the same time that Mr. Cooper came to me, he said, "We want the same conditions as the musicians."

I said, "Carl, it isn't in the cards."

He says, "Well, all right."

I said, "We are not going to pay the musicians."

He says, "That is all right; but if the musicians get it, we get it." So when we paid the musicians, Mr. Cooper, in turn, would have also walked out if I had told Mr. Carroll that Mr. Cooper also would walk

out.

Mr. MCCANN. In other words, he was talking for the stage hands' salaries?

Mr. LONG. That is right.

Mr. MCCANN. And asking that you increase their salaries proportionately as you had increased the musicians' under their letter of February 4?

Mr. LONG. That is right, and if Mr. Petrillo didn't say give the boys that, Mr. Cooper wouldn't say give the boys that. We have had, at the same time in that negotiation we have had for 2 years an engineer, one engineer, treat him in the theater as a mechanic. He is an A. F. of L. man. He said for 2 years he has negotiated so you will have two men in here instead of one. I said, "Why two? I can't find enough for one to do. What is the idea? Why is it?"

He said, "Well, our fellows are using trucks, so you must have two men."

I met with those men about 10 times over a period of time and Mr. Smith from the labor council came up. I said, "Mr. Smith, if you tell me I must have this man, too, I will put the man on."

They couldn't do it up to that time. He said, "I want Mr. Carroll here with this man to discuss putting him on."

I said to Mr. Carroll, "Well, let's put the man on. There is nothing for the man to do. Nothing in that."

I am sorry; I'm a little nervous and I am angry, and it is mighty serious to me.

Well, I will touch on Mr. Klein, a good friend of mine and a fine fellow, probably the best negotiator they have; he is fair, always been fair. He has never come to me he could have come to me and we would have made a deal. Unfortunately I don't think Harry has authority.

Mr. MCCANN. Let's get down to the time since the strike when Mr. Carroll came back from Washington and there was a meeting held on May 28 in the union headquarters with J. K. Wallace and Lee MacQuarrie and Harry Long and Earl Carroll and John teGroen and Charles L. Bagley. Were you there?

Mr. LONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. Have you heard the testimony of Mr. Carroll on the stand as to what was said by Mr. Carroll and what was said by Mr. Wallace?

Mr. LONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. Can you corroborate the testimony of Mr. Carroll on those points?

Mr. LONG. I will corroborate every word, but there are a couple of things that he didn't get in.

Mr. MCCANN. What else did you hear?

Mr. LONG. On our departure Mr. Carroll says, "Now, is there any way" he says, "Supposing I forget Washington and I take these three men out, will you take those three men out and not force me to pay them, and we can handle the rest of the affairs, perhaps."

Wallace says, "Not a chance."

Mr. MCCANN. Now, what has happened since that time?

Mr. LONG. Since that time people have been rather nice to me, I am sorry to say-or I am glad to say-even if Mr. MacQuarrie was very nice. As a matter of fact, Mr. Carroll came over to see Fulton Lewis.