Mr. MCCANN. May I explain to you in these hearings, counsel in all the congressional hearings don't ask questions of a witness. If you have any questions to ask, if you will advise the chairman or myself what questions you want to ask, we will be delighted to ask them for you. In other words, these are ex parte proceedings.

Mr. EMME. I would like to clear the record in reference to a fact. There have been 15 or 16 men in this orchestra since Carroll opened in 1938, to the present time. The record at the present indicates something different.

Mr. MCCANN. Would you mind communicating with me what you want to ask and I will be delighted to ask the questions.

Will you please state what number of men have been in that pit from the beginning of the opening of the theater to the present time? Mr. ARCHER. Well, there has never been less than 15 men in there. The only time there is less is when we play the dance. We have had

more.

Mr. MCCANN. But the only difference between those times and the time of this situation is that your union required that the 15 men should play everything; isn't that true?

Mr. ARCHER. When those men were first hired, nobody was forced to hire anybody. They never forced him to hire.

Mr. MCCANN. That isn't answering the question. The only difference is, while there may have been 15 men in the pit, they performed for part of the performance?

Mr. ARCHER. That is right.

Mr. MCCANN. And the union in this case required the management to let them perform the full performance?

Mr. ARCHER. But they negotiated, and they didn't have to.

Mr. KEARNS. Now, Mr. Archer, I was very glad to hear you state that your employer was a good man to work for.

One of the things we have to do in America, if we are going to get along and save our great Republic is for people here to get along with one another. And, in my humble opinion, it behooves management and behooves labor, whatever you want to call it, professional men or what we may be, to get together and do business together for the good of our country.

Now, in evaluating Mr. Carroll as an employer, would you say he is the average, or above average, or below average of the type of employer musicians work for?

Mr. ARCHER: I would say he is above average.

Mr. KEARNS. Above average?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes.

Mr. KEARNS. That way employment in his establishment would be considered desirable?

Mr. ARCHER. That is right. We have never had any trouble with him.

Mr. KEARNS. Now, how about a fellow here-supposing I come out to California and I decide to buy a restaurant here and have a band in there, do I have any right to say how many men I am going to hire? Mr. ARCHER. Well, I think if you are going to have the restaurant, I think I don't know a thing about this-I think they meet with them and find out what the admission is going to be, and the price, and how many it will hold, and everything. And I think they arrive at some

number of men that way; I don't know. As I say, I am only the contractor out there.

Mr. KEARNS. Would I have, at least, the opportunity of sitting down with the head of this local here and having some voice in the number of men I would employ?

Mr. ARCHER. You certainly would.

Mr. KEARNS. Further, would I have any voice in the situation, supposing I was going down the street and I heard a good sax team or a good brass team, could I come up to you and say, "I like the way those boys 'cut it'." Could I get those boys in this band or mine?

Mr. ARCHER. Well, the way we do things, you have to have a reason for letting these other fellows go. You just can't throw them out because

Mr. KEARNS. I don't have anybody yet.

Mr. ARCHER. You don't have anybody yet?

Mr. KEARNS. That is right.

Mr. ARCHER. Sure.

Mr. KEARNS. Then I could have the opportunity of picking up-
Mr. ARCHER. Why not? Sure.

Mr. KEARNS. Do you think that Mr. Carroll, when he came to Washington to complain about this situation, didn't understand the situation thoroughly, inasmuch as he was just the employer there, or do you think he didn't remember he always had 15 men?

As I remember the testimony before us; it was he had 12.

Mr. ARCHER. That is right.

Mr. KEARNS. I was on the full committee.

Mr. ARCHER. Let me explain something else, if I may. He took the books out of the pit and had these books-we have a signed statement by the fellows that changed this part-and had them cut down to 12 men, and it would look like the other 3 were stand-bys and didn't have anything. I have the fiddle books locked up. The trombone player knows his part. They were cut down by an arranger out at Fox, which we have a signed statement on, by a notary public. That band was cut down to 12 men, as far as the musicians were concerned; he had it cut down.

Mr. KEARNS. He testified to that in his testimony.

Mr. ARCHER. We had it scored at the time of the new show, after the testimony was given, or before, I don't know which; he had them cut down.

Mr. KEARNS. You think the job out there is too hard for just 12 men, like your brass players have to work too long at a stretch and need relief or something like that?

Mr. ARCHER. I think we work more in that place than any other place in town. We do 5 hours a night.

We start at 8:45. We play a 15-minute dance and rest 10 minutes. There is a 5-minute ring for the show to go on at 9:15.

We go on at 9:15 to 11. We rest from 11 to 11:25.

From 11:30 to 11:45 we do a radio show. Then we rest to 12 o'clock. A bell rings and we come back in and we stay in the pit until the finish.

Now, we don't have to play that last part. There is nobody in there. They usually go about 1:25 or 1:30. We have been having to stay in the pit. They used to wave us out. Since tempers are high and everything else, we have had to stay in there until 1:45.

Mr. KEARNS. Wouldn't you say a good musician would rather be playing than just sitting around?

Mr. ARCHER. If you don't have to jam too much on a show. The brass man is the fellow that really suffers.

Mr. KEARNS. You think you have enough change there of your instruments that it is all right?

Mr. ARCHER. For the number of men we have.

Mr. KEARNS. You are not complaining?

Mr. ARCHER. I wouldn't like to see it be cut down. It would be too hard on the brass men.

Mr. KEARNS. You are not complaining?

Mr. ARCHER. I am not. I am not a brass man.

Mr. KEARNS. Has anyone in the brass complained?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes. They know they have played when they get through.

Mr. KEARNS. They have complained to you?

Mr. ARCHER. Oh, yes.

Mr. KEARNS. These members of the board-I want to get this clear— you report to a Mr. Paul?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes.

Mr. KEARNS. How is this board formed; is it elected or appointed? Mr. ARCHER. Elected.

Mr. KEARNS. Who gets to vote for it?

Mr. ARCHER. The whole membership.

Mr. KEARNS. Fifteen thousand union members in Los Angeles? Mr. ARCHER. That is right. I don't know the membership; I think that is it.

Mr. KEARNS. Is it Mr. Wallace?

Mr. MCCANN. Mr. "Spike" Wallace.

Mr. KEARNS. He informed me there are 15,000 members here. Is that correct?

Mr. MCCANN. Yes.

Mr. KEARNS. Every member gets a chance to vote?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes.

Mr. KEARNS. How often do they change?

Mr. ARCHER. Every 2 years.

Mr. KEARNS. Can they succeed themselves?

Mr. ARCHER. Oh, yes; if they are elected.

Mr. KEARNS. They can stay in office permanently if they are elected? Mr. ARCHER. That is right.

Mr. KEARNS. Is there much of a campaign put on for that election? Mr. ARCHER. Quite a bit.

Mr. KEARNS. They like the job?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes; everybody wants to get in there.

Mr. KEARNS. When they get in they make every effort possible to

stay in; is that right?

Mr. ARCHER. Not too much.

Mr. KEARNS. What is the turn-over on the board?

Mr. ARCHER. You mean the price

Mr. KEARNS. No; the turn-over in membership. What is it over,

say, the last 10 years; what would be the turn-over?

Mr. ARCHER. I haven't any idea.

Mr. KEARNS. Since you have been here.

Mr. ARCHER. Board members and things like that?

Mr. KEARNS. Yes.

Mr. ARCHER. There have been three or four changes-more than that. I really don't know.

Mr. KEARNS. How many members on the board?

Mr. ARCHER. Five.

Mr. KEARNS. I have no further questions.

Mr. MCCANN. May I ask if you know how many of the 15,000 members of the American Federation of Musicians in Los Angeles are actually earning their living at music?

Mr. ARCHER. I wouldn't know.

Mr. MCCANN. You don't know how many are actually employed as musicians?

Mr. ARCHER. No.

Mr. MCCANN. May I ask you if you have ever had a complaint from Mr. Carroll with respect to the performance of any musician you have had in the orchestra?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes; I had one.

Mr. MCCANN. What was done about it?

Mr. ARCHER. Well, I met Mr. Carroll up on the back one night and he said, "Ward," he says, "gee, the music we are playing-these old tunes."

I said, "I know that."

He says, "Now," he says, "Joe Strand," he says, "I don't want an accordion there." He said, "If it wasn't Manny's brother I would let him go."

I said, "Yes, I know about it."

That is all that was said. He didn't force me to fire him, or anything else.

Mr. MCCANN. You selected him?

Mr. ARCHER. No. I wasn't the contractor when he was hired.

Mr. MCCANN. You were the contractor when he talked with you? Mr. ARCHER. Yes.

Mr. MCCANN. You say that was the only occasion he ever commented on a performance?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes.

Mr. MCCANN. I suggest at this time we excuse Mr. Archer until tomorrow afternoon, at 2 o'clock. We may want to question him after we question some other witnesses.

I believe we have been requested to hear a lady at this time, Miss Bale, because she had to go to San Francisco. I believe you told me, Mr. Chairman, to call on her.

Mr. KEARNS. That is right.

TESTIMONY OF FLORINE CRAWFORD BALE, NATIONAL REPRESENTATIVE, WESTERN DIVISION, AMERICAN GUILD OF VARIETY ARTISTS

(The witness was previously duly sworn.)

Mr. KEARNS. Miss Bale, have you been sworn?

Miss BALE. Yes, sir.

Mr. KEARNS. Will you state your name in full?
Miss BALE. Florine Crawford Bale.

Mr. KEARNS. Where do you live?

Miss BALE. 8856 Ruthelen Street, Los Angeles.

Mr. KEARNS. Proceed, counsel.

Mr. MCCANN. Will you please state how long you have lived in Los Angeles?

Miss BALE. For the past 18 years.

Mr. MCCANN. What position, if any, do you hold officially?

Miss BALE. I am a national representative of the American Guild of Variety Artists, in charge of the western division.

Mr. MCCANN. What does that territory cover?

Miss BALE. Everything west of the Mississippi.

Mr. MCCANN. Who is the executive president of your organization? Miss BALE. Mr. Max Shelby is the national director, New York City.

Mr. MCCANN. What group of the performers at the Earl Carroll Theater Restaurant do you represent?

Miss BALE. I represent all of the performers in the stage show. Mr. MCCANN. In the stage show?

Miss BALE. Yes.

Mr. MCCANN. Do you know how many there are?

Miss BALE. Well, there are between 70 and 100 performers, depending upon the various production numbers.

Mr. MCCANN. Have you had any difficulty at all as representative of your guild with the Earl Carroll Theater Restaurant?

Miss BALE. We have had matters come up, but I have always been able to go in and talk to Mr. Carroll and discuss our problems and get them settled very satisfactorily.

Mr. MCCANN. Do you have any idea as to the condition with respect to those whom you represent there, are they happy in their employment at Earl Carroll's Theater?

Miss BALE. Yes; they are, as far as I know. If they weren't, I would sure hear from them.

Mr. MCCANN. Was any approach made to you at all to have the members of your guild go out on the 26th of May?

Miss BALE. No; there was no approach made. I knew something was going on, but the musicians did not request we go with them. Mr. MCCANN. No communication was had with your

Miss BALE. I did talk to Mr. MacQuarrie by phone, that was all. Mr. MCCANN. Did he call you about it?

Miss BALE. I think I called him.

Mr. MCCANN. When was that?

Miss BALE. Approximately a day or so before the first disturbance over there.

Mr. MCCANN. Will you tell us what the conversation was?

Miss BALE. As I remember now, I went with Mr. MacQuarrie and representatives of the Culinary Alliance and the Actors, and Mr. Reed, I believe, was there, in a small cafe on Hollywood Boulevard we were negotiating with. It had been a nonunion cafe. We were in there and were trying to straighten the matter out. The man there wanted a show. I told him it would have to go with all the crafts before we would allow our people in there.

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