Mr. PETRILLO. That is right.

Mr. NIXON. But you do not want to do it for television?

Mr. PETRILLO. We helped to build the business free of charge.

Mr. NIXON. That was a fine thing to do. It, would be a fine thing to do for television.

Mr. PETRILLO. I do not know. They have the dough and they should spend it.

Mr. NIXON. Who has the dough?

Mr. PETRILLO. The broadcasting companies.

Mr. NIXON. They are the ones in television?

Mr. PETRILLO. Yes.

Mr. NIXON. But television as a division of the broadcasting company is not making any money now?

Mr. PETRILLO. Not now.

Mr. NIXON. In fact, it is being subsidized by the radio-broadcasting companies and motion-picture companies and independents.

Mr. PETRILLO. They are fighting among themselves. They cannot come to an agreement among themselves.

Mr. NIXON. It is not a case that they cannot make money on television broadcasts, but because they do not have large enough listening audiences.

Mr. PETRILLO. There is no immediate profit in television, but why should RCA or the National Broadcasting Co. come to us and say, "Gamble with us," when they have all the dough and we do not have any money? There is no reason why we should go and help them make television and make millions of dollars later on, and, when they see fit, to throw us out of work. We want to go along with them if we can come to some kind of agreement. We are ready to negotiate. The door is not closed.

Mr. NIXON. That is the point. What price have you offered them? Mr. PETRILLO. No price as yet.

Mr. NIXON. You generally have to offer a price before they can bargain with you?

Mr. PETRILLO. I think they would take any kind of price. I think they would take the price of $100 an hour. That is not what we are interested in. There is no sense getting a price of $100 an hour and having just two men working.

Mr. NIXON. Do you feel they should take the entire risk?

Mr. PETRILLO. That is their business. We certainly cannot build a theater and say we will pay the carpenters and musicians after it is built.

Mr. NIXON. I understand it is to the interest of your union and you, as the leader of that union, to build more business to employ more musicians.

Mr. PETRILLO. Why should we build the business at our expense? Mr. NIXON. Because in the case of radio you built it at your expense and you are now pulling $23,000,000 a year out of it.

Mr. PETRILLO. If I told the musicians to go out and build that free of charge, they would not do it.

Mr. NIXON. Suppose you told them to build for $20. You pick your own figures.

Mr. PETRILLO. I do not think that is fair.

Mr. NIXON. You have indicated it is not a matter of price, but a matter of what kind of agreement.

Mr. PETRILLO. Employment.

Mr. PADWAY. Of course, Mr. Congressman, you talk of $23,000,000 as though the $23,000,000 were added to something. The $23,000,000, if it was not there, might have been $100,000,000 or $150,000,000. Mr. NIXON. On that point, so we do not belabor it too much: You say $23,000,000 might have been $100,000,000.

Mr. PADWAY. Yes.

Mr. NIXON. And yet today you have 216,000 members of the union, with virtually no unemployment. Where would you get the members of the union to take that $100,000,000?

Mr. PADWAY. No, Mr. Nixon; I think there is a misunderstanding between our side and you on the question of employment. The fact of the matter is that a large number of those 216,000 members probably do not earn $5 a week. They are grocery clerks and shoe clerks, and so on. The fact of the matter is they would like to be employed in music. The reason why they come to the union and take out the membership is because of the employment they can get on a Saturday night in a dance hall in town or nearby town. The dance hall will require them to be members of the American Federation of Musicians. It gives them a little bit of prestige. He shows his card and has people believe he has had an examination, although the test is finally whether he renders good music.

Mr. NIXON. Is it your desire that all the people who are grocery clerks, or lawyers, or doctors, or whatever they happen to be, and also who happen to be musicians on the side, should give up their other jobs and become full-time musicians?

Is that the point?

Mr. PETRILLO. No; but we say this, that those who do have a love for music and would like to get into that profession, that trade or work, ought to have that right in order to be able to make a living.

There is no limitation on how many lawyers we have in the United States. If my son or daughter wants to become a lawyer or doctor, if I can afford to send either one of them through school, he or she may make that choice and go through and practice his or her profession.

The same thing applies with respect to a musician.

Mr. MCCANN. The mere fact they become lawyers does not mean the public guarantees them a living, and there are thousands of lawyers who do not earn a living.

Mr. PETRILLO. The public does not have to guarantee the musician a living.

Mr. MCCANN. By the set-up here, and the arrangement you are trying to make, you are trying to make industry guarantee your living before you enter into a contract with them.

Mr. PETRILLO. We do no different than a bar association when it requires a man to show that he has done so much studying and that he holds himself out as professionally equipped to do the particular work and to give the particular service that he wishes to render.

Mr. MCCANN. Tell me anything in the law which guarantees any lawyer in the United States a dime from industry?

Mr. PETRILLO. There is nothing in the law, nor do we want anything in the law, to guarantee the musician a dime.

What we want is that the union should have the same opportunity that the American Bar Association and AMA has to foster and promote the interest of the people that are in it.

Mr. MCCANN. I want to introduce in evidence at this point a contract which has been signed.

I will read the letter which goes with it into the record:

Mr. JRVING MCCANN,

Room 8305, Baitimore Hotel,

Los Angeles, Calif.

DEAR MR. MCCANN: Enclosed find the contract existing between the major producers and the American Federation of Musicians.

This contract has been executed as separate contracts with the following studios:

Columbia Pictures Corp.

Loew's, Inc.

Paramount Pictures, Inc.

RKO-Radio Pictures, Inc.

Samuel Goldwyn Studios.

Twentieth Century-Fox Film Corp.

Universal Pictures Co., Inc.

Republic Productions, Inc.

Hal Roach Studios, Inc.

Warner Bros. Pictures, Inc.
Sincerely,

(Signed) CHARLES BOREN.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to read one paragraph from page 4 of this contract:

1. The producer agrees that he will not, without the prior written consent of the federation, license, lease, lend, give, sell, utilize, or in any other way whatsoever authorize the use, in whole or in part, of the music sound track containing the recorded music made by members of the federation, or scenes or shots containing pictures of members of the federation performing on musical instruments or conducting, heretofore made or which will be made prior to the expiration of this agreement, on or in connection with television, during the life of this agreement and thereafter; except only after separate negotiations are entered upon and after a separate written agreement has been reached between the federation and the producer with respect to the use of such music sound track or such scenes or shots, on or in connection with television, can such use be made, and then only upon the terms and conditions agreed upon by the federation and the producer in such separate agreement.

Mr. Petrillo, I would like to ask you this question: Have you ever offered to the producers any terms or conditions which the federation would be willing to consider from the use of television?

Mr. PETRILLO. That question has never come up.

Mr. PADWAY. Let me state something. I do not like to be put in the position of a witness asking a question.

Is that not what industry does when it takes out a patent to protect the particular device that it has against other people using the patent, and have we not the rights to protect at least the efforts of human labor as well as industry has the right to protect its capital investment in patents and other things it has produced in that way?

Mr. MCCANN. I disagree with you. I disagree with you completely:

Where there are 230,000 people who are musicians engaged in the practice of music or in the art of music, you certainly have not something which is unique or some article that can be patented.

I do not think the comparison is similar at all.

Mr. Chairman, I wish we would proceed with some of the examination.

Mr. KEARNS. Proceed, Mr. Nixon.

Mr. NIXON. I have no questions at the moment.

Mr. KEARNS. Mr. Petrillo, we were out on the west coast and we heard some pretty pathetic stories out there concerning canned music.

We have known all along that big companies-big industry-can always carry their load pretty well. We found out there on the west coast that the big producers-the big movie firms-had a quota of men that they had to have in their studios to produce pictures. That is correct, is it not?

There is a quota established for the various companies. They have no objection to that because you made the quota low enough that they could carry it because they wanted more instruments-they wanted more fillers, you understand, so that it would sound better, and they were producing big pictures.

But in the movie industry we have what is known as the Big 8, and we have the Middle 11, and we have the Small 29 producers.

In the Small 29 producers, a lot of them made these western shorts, and they made up a budget for those pictures and they estimated the budget at approximately $30,000. When they made that estimate they figured that they could hire approximately eight musicians at a cost of $240 for each picture.

A little later on, we were told they were employing enough men. They came along with a new agreement with the union out there whereby they must employ, for those small pictures, 20 men and a leader; they must be guaranteed, and not overworked, a maximum of 520 hours a year.

They stated that they could not possibly consume more than 300 hours of the stipulated number of hours shown in the contract, but each one of the musicians was guaranteed a yearly salary of approximately $6,900.

When they made up their budgets for these pictures, they found out they were running 80 percent over.

One man testified on a $1,000,000 production he ran 200 percent over; they said they could not carry the load that was asked by the musicians' union to furnish incidental music which was classified for that type of picture.

Now, I realize the big fellow can pay the bill, but those fellows out there in the small industry, in the small movie-producing industry, cannot pay those prices.

Today they are not producing pictures. The public is deprived of the type of pictures that they ordinarily or commonly produce out there.

What is your solution to that situation?

Is there any way it can be alleviated?

Mr. PETRILLO. Well, we went along with the Hollywood majors for a good many years up until 4 years ago. We never had a contract with those people.

Mr. KEARNS. That is what I understood.

Mr. PETRILLO. It was all verbal. We finally got into a contract with the majors, and then we made a scale and a minimum number of men for the independents. We could not find the independents. They were scattered all over California.

Mr. KEARNS. That is right.

Mr. PETRILLO. So we said, all right, now those independents whom we cannot find and we do not know where they are, we will tell them to employ 50 men at $75 per man for 3 hours, when they make a picture, and then they are through with the men.

Well, Donald Nelson followed me and said he would like to have a meeting.

Mr. KEARNS. Mr. Nelson is head of the independents?

Mr. PETRILLO. Mr. Nelson is head of the independents. So I told Mr. Nelson I would be happy to meet with him, and I did in New York City.

He had a very good idea; that is, what I call constructive. He came in and said, "Petrillo, if you will give me a chance, tell your board to give me a chance to get all these independents together, something you never had before. We may come to a deal and give you a certain number of men, and if one cannot use the men today, the other will use them today. Another may use them next week. Let us shoot the men around so they can all take a whack at them so long as we do not put on any more hours than you lay down in the law."

I told him, "I think you have a good idea; go ahead. How much time do you want?"

He said 4 weeks.

He comes up with an idea. He had all the independents he could' get, and he made an offer of 104 men by the year at $6,900 per man per year.

Now, that happened. We signed the agreement and everybody is happy.

Now, up come a few other independents who did not want to join the Nelson group. About 3 months later when the contract was closed, they wanted to know from me whether they could open the contract and take this group in.

I said, "I do not think that is fair. The deal is made."

Then comes along another group, the Chadwick group, the group you are speaking of.

Mr. KEARNS. That is right.

Mr. PETRILLO. We gave them 20 men, and we said they could pick up as many groups as they saw fit, put them all in the group. They could find 10, 15, or 20 independents and put them all in there and let them all use the musicians from day to day so long as they did not run over 520 hours a year.

Well, I think Donald Nelson grabbed most of the independentsso there were not many left for Mr. Chadwick.

We made a deal with the Chadwick group to hire 20 men, as I

say.

Now I do not think that Mr. Chadwick has ever made a complaint to us about it. The man in my office who takes care of this business now says all he wanted to do is to keep the contract open a little longer so he might be able to get more independents.

Mr. KEARNS. Who wanted to keep the contract open?

Mr. PETRILLO. Chadwick. He has 29 independent users in that group now; 20 men for 29 independent producers does not seem like a lot of men.

Now, Mr. Chadwick and his group, if they say they cannot use 520 hours a year, that they can only use 330, they have the alternative