of permitting the children of America to have the opportunity to express themselves through the medium of music over the air.

Ι

I remember back in 1943 we happened to have an all-State band contest in the schools in the town where I was teaching, and we were able to broadcast this band over the local station. I called up KDKA, of Pittsburgh, and asked if they would care to carry the program. I was told they would be unable to carry this all-State band program because there was a ban on it. It seems to me that the music educators of America have been the greatest developers of professional musicians we have had. In the old days we used to go to Europe for our talent, to get a good French-horn player, a bassoon player, or an oboe player, but we can take our high-school bands today, and collegebands, and we find some very high-type musicians.

Personally, I think every music educator in the United States is sold on the idea that if one of these boys wants to go out and play professionally, they should join the union. Everyone advocates them being members of the union. I don't know of anyone who will try to 'tell the boys and girls not to join the union if they are going to play professionally. They advocate it.

And yet, these youngsters in school are denied this opportunity of expressing themselves in any of their large festivals through the medium of broadcasting.

You know we just can't tie into any one thing, any one union, or one organization, or one pattern of things, in this America of ours. We just can't control all our ways and modes of living through one source.

After all, the fundamental principles of America are built on the home, on the church, and the schools. That is the backbone of life and of agencies such as unions, and other working organizations must fit into the development of those three fundamental institutions in our American life.

You know I have wondered many, many times if there has not been some misunderstanding about this amateur situation in your federa-tion, because it seems to me with an organization like you have, and the potentialities you have for membership, that it would almost be impossible for you to make certain demands that would in any way interfere with the children of America.

Now, for the record, I want absolutely for us to let our hair down on this thing this morning and iron it out, so that we have a clear picture of it-not only what has happened in the past, but your ideas for the future in America for the children who wish to broadcast.

Mr. PETRILLO. Of course, to begin with, now that the Lea bill is in force, the American Federation of Musicians cannot interfere in anyway with the amateur band, or the school band, or whatever you call it.. Mr. KEARNS. You admit that the interpretation of the Lea Act clears that channel entirely?

Mr. PETRILLO. That is my understanding, Mr. Kearns.

Mr. KEARNS. Yes.

Mr. PETRILLO. Now, the situation has been played up to such an extent that they really have the children believing that we do not want them to go on the air.

Knowing that one of the principal things this investigation would be about would be the question of the amateur musicians, or school musicians, or college bands, I sent a letter to the locals, so that I would'

be informed and ready to answer the questions that might be put to me along the line you just spoke of.

Mr. KEARNS. Do you have the date of that letter?

Mr. PETRILLO. Yes; I do.

Well, I have the letter, and no date. This is a copy; they forgot to put a date on.

Mr. KEARNS. I see.

Mr. PETRILLO. I would say about 212 months ago, maybe 3.

Mr. KEARNS. All right.

Mr. PETRILLO. Now, there are 454 locals that answered the letter, because those are the only locals interested in this situation, because of radio.

The majority of our locals do not have any radio stations in the town. Mr. KEARNS. That is right.

Mr. PETRILLO. We find that in 1946 there were broadcast 3,234 amateur programs of all types, college bands, school bands, amateur bands, that the locals never interfered with..

That surprised me when I got this report. That is quite a showing, that a majority of the locals do not interfere with them at all locally. Now, so far as the federation itself is concerned, we have not had any requests on chain broadcasts for a great many years.

The only one we got mixed up with, which, as you well know, is very popular, is the Interlochen situation.

Mr. KEARNS. Yes.

Mr. PETRILLO. Five or six years ago I had a meeting with Mrs. Roosevelt, at her request, as she was very much interested in the NYA orchestras. She was desirous of having those broadcasts go on the Columbia broadcasting chain every Sunday morning, and after meeting with her I reported back to the international executive board that Mrs. Roosevelt would like to have those broadcasts go on the air, and we O.K.'d the program.

Mr. KEARNS. That was more the amateur musician rather than the school musician.

Mr. PETRILLO. That was the amateur musician; yes.

So she sent me a telegram following that, on September 25, 1943— and I quote her:

You are undoubtedly aware that the symphony concerts which you suggestedI am wrong. This is a telegram to President Roosevelt.

This is September 6, 1940:

HYDE PARK.

MY DEAR MR. PETRILLO: Will you be kind enough to serve on the sponsor's committee with me for the radio broadcasts which are to be given by the National Youth Administration on Sunday mornings. Mr. Aubrey Williams will have given you all the details.

This is just to say I hope you will be willing to join me in sponsoring what I think is really an important opportunity for these young people.

On September 11, 1940, I wired:

MY DEAR MRS. ROOSEVELT: I will be more than pleased to serve on the committee with you in sponsoring the National Youth Administration concerts on Sunday mornings. I believe this to be a very fine endeavor on your part, and if I can help in this wonderful endeavor on your part, and if I can help in this wonderful program, I will be more than happy and you may call upon the

American Federation of Musicians and myself at any time to cooperate in such causes as above.

That is signed "James C. Petrillo.”

So we sponsored these programs for these youth orchestras, and they went on the air every Sunday morning for quite some time. Mr. KEARNS. Was that a chain hook-up?

Mr. PETRILLO. A chain hook-up; yes. They went from city to city; one Sunday morning they would be in New York, one Sunday morning they would be in Philadelphia, one Sunday morning in Chicago,

and so on.

Mr. KEARNS. I recall the program.

Mr. PETRILLO. They were very nice programs.

So, when the thing is all simmered down, and you get through with the Interlochen situation, we certainly have not interfered at all.

Take the Navy games, the Army football games. They bring their bands along. You know what a football game is. They bring their college bands. Those bands go over the air during the football season. We never interfere with those bands.

Mr. KEARNS. We do not expect you to interfere with those.
How about these festivals, now?

Mr. PETRILLO. Well, there are festivals and festivals.

Mr. KEARNS. We will take, because I am familiar with it, the allState band, or all-State chorus, where the children come from all over the State, that want to go on the air if there is any time available. They were not asking for a time when the high-paid programs were on the air, in the morning or afternoons; they were glad to take a half hour for the broadcasting of their programs.

Don't you think that should be permitted?

Mr. PETRILLO. I don't think we are apart very much on those situations at all, because if they go on the air in the morning, they certainly do not interfere with the musicians' union.

These situations are all local. As I said, locally, school bands have gone on the air for many years.

I would like to go into the Interlochen situation.

Mr. KEARNS. Just a'minute before you go into that.

Do you have a copy of that letter you sent out to the locals?

Mr. PETRILLO. Yes.

Mr. KEARNS. I would like to have it read.

Mr. PETRILLO, O. K.

This is a copy of the letter, but we haven't got the date.

Mr. KEARNS. That is all right. You said it was about 22 or 3 months ago.

Mr. PETRILLO (reading):

To All Locals of the American Federation of Musicians:

DEAR SIR AND BROTHER: The following information is desired from those locals which have radio stations in their jurisdiction.

Has your local ever prohibited the school bands or orchestras from playing over the radio? By school bands and orchestras, we mean grade schools, high schools, colleges, conservatories, or amateur bands of any kind.

Are the radio stations required to get permission of your local to put nonmembers on the air, or are they free to use these nonmember musicians as they please?

How many such broadcasts take place each year?

Please answer the foregoing questions as completely as possible and give us all other information on broadcasting of school bands and orchestras in your jurisdiction immediately. The matter is urgent.

(Signed) JAMES C. PETRILLO.

Mr. KEARNS. All right.

I found in making the survey, Mr. Petrillo, and, after all, we covered a lot of territory, and the thing that astonished me was the fact that you were not consistent in your orders.

I found one thing was permissible in Los Angeles, another thing in Chicago, and another thing in New York.

For instance, in New York, at the public-school-owned broadcasting station, they are allowed to broadcast music. They even have a hookup over the network if there is time available.

You go into Chicago and you have that sewed up tight. The highschool children, the bands and the choruses and orchestras in Chicago schools cannot play on the air. They cannot participate in community functions. You have it tighter than a drum out in Chicago, where as in New York it is wide open and permissible as to anything they want to do.

I want to get this in the record to try to find out why the pattern is different in these various localities.

Mr. PETRILLO. Well it is a difference of opinion on the question of school bands in the different locals; see?

The locals do not object to school bands going on the air. My survey shows that.

I will venture to say that in Chicago the board of education works in cooperation with the local there.

Mr. KEARNS. Very much so; do they not?

Mr. PETRILLO. Very much so; yes.

I do not know of course, I have not been active to the extent. where I go through all the details of the Chicago local. You can readily understand that. I do get into the big questions, but the detailed stuff and the minor stuff, I do not get into at all. I don't know half that is going on.

Mr. KEARNS. Of course, I do not consider this a minor thing in your job. I think this is one of the most important things you have to do, as president of the union, to go into this idea about the children of America, and let them have this expression over the air.

Mr. PETRILLO. You will find through the Lea bill we have not done the job any good, or the kids any good-that is what was intimated. I deny that.

You will find under the Lea bill the federation is not permitted to interfere with these broadcasts. That takes care of that situation entirely.

But where it is not commercial, where they do not play commercially for a sponsored program, I do not think the situation is as bad as it has been printed in the press.

Mr. KEARNS. You feel you have had a bad press about that situation.

Mr. PETRILLO. I think so. I think it has been played up in the press to an extent that it has been exaggerated.

You take the Interlochen thing

Mr. KEARNS. Let us wait a little bit about Interlochen. We will go into that later.

Do you think it would be very wise or a very good gesture on your part, as president of the American Federation of Musicians, to send out a letter to the superintendents of schools in the United States, to

tell them they have freedom from here in on this matter if they will contact your locals and clear the matter there, because the locals are instructed to let them go right ahead now.

Isn't that right?

Mr. PETRILLO. We haven't instructed them about anything.

Mr. KEARNS. I though your letter said

Mr. PETRILLO. That letter was merely getting information as to whether they permitted the bands to go over the air or not in their respective jurisdictions.

Mr. KEARNS. But you haven't given them any instructions?
Mr. PETRILLO. No.

Mr. KEARNS. But you will give them that now?

Mr. PETRILLO. I am going to give them the entire Lea bill in our newspaper, and what the Supreme Court said about it, and they can. use their own judgment.

But I would say, following your question, that if the music educators of this country are interested-and I am sure they are in school children and the amateur band situation going over the air, and orchestras, I think it would be much better to come to an understanding with those organizations and the American Federation of Musicians in a joint meeting.

Mr. MCCANN. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question there?

Mr. KEARNS. You may.

Mr. MCCANN. Mr. Petrillo, you have the power, do you not, to advise the locals of the American Federation of Musicians what their policy, should be, and what they should do?

Mr. PETRILLO. Well, that is not so.

Mr. McCANN. You do not have that power?.

Mr. PETRILLO. No.

You must remember that our locals are autonomous. Our locals have local autonomy.

Mr. MCCANN. Isn't it a fact that when a local does something you do not approve of, you can set that aside?

Mr. PETRILLO. Set it aside only if there is an appeal made by the other side.

Mr. MCCANN. You cannot set it aside without an appeal by the other side.

Mr. PETRILLO. I don't think I can set it aside unless there is an appeal made to the union.

For instance, if a local says a school cannot go on the air, and the school superintendent wires me, to the president's office, and appeals, then I go into the appeal and act one way or another.

Mr. MCCANN. Do you think that there is any question of doubt that if you communicate with your locals in the United States and advised them flat-footedly that hereafter amateur musicians and school bands shall be free to play over the radio, without stand-by musicians, that that order of yours would not be enforced?

Mr. PETRILLO. I say that it would be.

Mr. MCCANN. It would be enforced?

Mr. PETRILLO. I believe it would be, but to give a general order like that is not doing the American Federation of Musicians any good. Mr. MCCANN. Is it doing the people of the United States any good? Mr. PETRILLO. Wait. Will you let me follow through, please?