Mr. MCCANN. No; I don't want you to follow through. I want to ask you this: Whether or not, in the interest of the welfare of the country, and to carry out the intent and purpose of the Lea bill, that it is not incumbent upon you, as the president of the American Federation of Musicians, to state to these locals that from now on they are not to require stand-by musicians.

Mr. PADWAY. Well, I submit, Mr. Chairman

Mr. PETRILLO. Well

Mr. PADWAY. Wait a minute.

Mr. PETRILLO. First of all, I am not going to give any such order, because there are situations where they want school bands to play for commercial programs.

Mr. MCCANN. We are not speaking of commercial programs.
Mr. PETRILLO. That is No. 1.

No. 2: I don't know of any one local, or the federation as a whole, that ever got any stand-bys on school children.

Mr. MCCANN. You don't know of any having been required?

Mr. PETRILLO. No; I don't know of any. If you have any such information, you produce it here. You will surprise me if you have it. Mr. MCCANN. We will be glad to furnish you with that information. Mr. PETRILLO. I would be glad to have it.

Mr. MCCANN. We will be glad to give you that information.

Mr. PETRILLO. You can understand that we could not give a general order.

If we are going to do something for the children of America, if we are going to do something for the public, I say there is only one way to do it, and do it fairly and squarely.

Let us have our meeting with a committee of educators, with our international executive board; let us have a plan that is fair to both sides, to the public and the children.

Mr. KEARNS. I think Mr. Petrillo is right there.

However, you drew up a code in 1944, when Dr. Maddy was president of the International Music Educators Association.

Over in the State of Ohio there is a marvelous agreement and working conditions between the American Federation of Musicians and the educators there, especially in Cleveland. They dovetail their programs there and do a good job.

But you jump over to Pennsylvania and they don't do that job; go over into Indiana and they do not do that job.

This code of ethics that was drawn up at the convention in 1944 was a very fine and functionable code. But it was not universally adopted in the States.

We ran into situations where in one town the local would not talk to them.

I agree with you that high-school bands should not interfere with professional musicians in their playing.

Mr. PETRILLO. We will never have any trouble—

Mr. KEARNS. But we have thousands of towns in this country that do not have a professional band. The only band in that area is the high-school band. It is the pride of the community.

And those children, in my book, should have every opportunity in the world to go to town with their band. But they have been stopped. You know they have been stopped by your locals.

66874-47-vol. 1-17

Mr. PETRILLO. The percentage is very strong, according to the statistics we have just received from our locals.

But that is water over the dam. If we want to do something, let's do it right; let us sit down and do the job.

Mr. KEARNS. I say "amen" to that.

Mr. PETRILLO. A blanket order to my people to say go ahead on this sky high will not do the job, because a year from now we may come in contact with a school that made a mistake and got into a commercial situation, and the whole thing will go.

Let us have the music teachers and educators come to the board and meet in some centrally located spot in the United States.

Mr. KEARNS. They don't come to your board. Let them all meet together. Nobody is coming to anybody.

Mr. PETRILLO. We will go to their board. We don't care whose

board it is.

Let us sit down and get this thing straightened out, and let us give it to the press.

Let us say we are going to act in harmony and cooperate in the whole

situation.

Mr. KEARNS. Are you willing to do that?

Mr. PETRILLO. I certainly am. I come from the amateur class. I got my education in a school band. I wouldn't be president of the American Federation of Musicians today if it were not for the school band, and for Jane Addams. She bought me my first trumpet. My people couldn't afford to give me a teacher.

We had a teacher and I paid him a buck and a half a month. Every night I took lessons. He was very bad. Jane Addams fixed me up. What would I have against the school children of America? I have six grandchildren of my own.

Mr. KEARNS. That is not the impression the public have of you. Mr. PETRILLO. I know that, but the thing has been played up in the papers, and I have to carry the load.

Mr. KEARNS. I am happy to have your statement that you are willing to sit down with the music educators of America and work out a program that will be functionable for all the schools throughout the United States.

Mr. PETRILLO. I don't think we will have any trouble.

Mr. KEARNS. How soon will you do that?

Mr. PETRILLO. As soon as you say the word.

Mr. KEARNS. All right; we will get letters out to them and tell them to get in touch with you and make an agreement for a meeting. It ought to happen before school opens in the fall.

Mr. PETRILLO. That is right.

I'll tell you what to do; I think you ought to be in a position to get these people together, telling them about this meeting we are having here today, telling them what was said, and telling them, "Let's sit down and go through this thing right. Let's make a deal with the musicians".

Mr. KEARNS. We don't want a deal now.

Mr. PETRILLO. I don't mean a deal.

Mr. PADWAY. He means by deal, terms and conditions.

Mr. PETRILLO. You must remember that I speak deals all the time.

I don't mean deal now.

Mr. PADWAY. Understanding.

Mr. PETRILLO. I mean, let's come to an understanding.

Mr. KEARNS. All right. I think that is a very progressive step you have taken, and I know the music educators and administrators of schools throughout America will appreciate that information, and I think our whole situation in the future will be a lot different.

Mr. PETRILLO. I think it will be all right; it will clear up most of the misunderstanding. That is the thing to do.

Now, then, the question comes up, if we make this agreement
Mr. KEARNS. Now, we are talking agreement.

Mr. PETRILLO. Where are they going to play?

Mr. KEARNS. What do you mean, where are they going to play? Mr. PETRILLO. The radio stations. You know their time is so much covered, they have so much business. Of course, we will leave that up to them.

Mr. KEARNS. That is right. If they don't want to give them any time, that is not Congress' trouble; it is the music educators' trouble. Mr. PETRILLO. That is right.

Mr. KEARNS. Now, there is one other item.

We had an international festival up at Montreal. I flew up there one stormy night to find out what that was all about, because we had about 4,000 children from the States up there.

They were permitted to broadcast over a Canadian station there, you know. They broadcast the festival there over the air.

However, they wanted to make a recording of the festival, the various units of it, the choruses, the bands, and the orchestras, and they called down to New York to Mr. Riccardi, after the local president up there was not able to give the authority, and Mr. Riccardi, in New York, denied them that permission.

Then, as a lost resort, they asked if they could make one record of the festival, for the posterity of the event, and that was denied.

Of course, I knew about this welfare fund of yours when I was up there, and I made this statement to the press: I said I knew Mr. Petrillo and the federation had this welfare fund, and if he wanted to do it, he could-if he wanted to do a good turn for the children and Congressman Nixon was with me when I made this statement-I said that you could well have afforded to have recordings made and give the children, give a record to every child there to take home, and you would have been a great fellow. But they were denied that privilege. I do not believe either that schools should go in the commercial recording business. I agree with you 100 percent there, but it seems to me, when a group of these children met at a festival, it would certainly be a wonderful thing if we could have a record to take home to dad and mother of the way their band played, or their orchestra played, or the way that chorus sang.

Do you agree with me?

Mr. PETRILLO. Well, the case was handled by Mr. Riccardi. If you don't mind, would you permit him to answer that question?

Mr. KEARNS. I would be glad to have him take the stand at this time. Mr. MCCANN. Mr. Chairman, I think he should be able to answer that question.

Mr. KEARNS. I am willing to let Mr. Riccardi answer it. He said yesterday he handled the recording.

Mr. MCCANN. I know, but I want Mr. Petrillo to answer that. Mr. KEARNS. I will get Mr. Petrillo's idea of it later, after I get it from Mr. Riccardi.

TESTIMONY OF REX RICCARDI, ASSISTANT TO THE PRESIDENT, AMERICAN FEDERATION OF MUSICIANS

(Mr. Riccardi was duly sworn.)

Mr. KEARNS. Now, Mr. Riccardi, will you tell me about that whole situation?

Mr. RICCARDI. Very briefly, the first knowledge I had of the situation up in Montreal was a call that I received from a Dr. Cooper. Apparently he had already discussed the situation with our local up there, and the local had advised him that the proposition appeared to be commercial and competitive.

Mr. KEARNS. The man was to get $1 a record; isn't that correct? Mr. RICCARDI. I do not recall what the price of the record was. Mr. KEARNS. That was the price to the children.

Mr. RICCARDI. As I say, the only contact I had with the situation was this call I received from Dr. Cooper.

He advised me he had contacted our people in Montreal and had been advised by them that the project they contemplated appeared to be competitive and commercial.

I asked several questions and it seemed to me it was established to my satisfaction that it was commercial and competitive, because he advised me these records were to be made and placed on sale, the same as any other record.

There was no limitation on the sale or in the manner in which they were to be distributed.

Later on, our local furnished me with a copy of an advertisement that was put out by the recording company that was to make the records, and that indicated that they were to be placed on sale the same as any other commercial record.

Mr. KEARNS. That was not the impression we got up there.

You have been around to these festivals where they have a chorus or a band, and a photographer comes in and takes a picture of that.

Then they sell the pictures to the children so that they can take them home and show mother and father how they looked in this band or chorus. That is the way they were going to have the recordings made, so that they could take them home. That is what I understood from the people up there.

I think Mr. Nixon can corroborate me on this, too, that they felt the record should sell for 60 cents rather than $1; that there was plenty of money for the recording company there to sell it for 60 cents rather than $1. But they would only be sold to the children who were in attendance at the festival. They were not to be on sale at the stores at all.

There were 12,000 children at that festival, and, of course, it meant $12,000 to that man who made the recording, and off his master record, he was going to sell these records.

Dr. Cooper felt badly about it. I think he resigned, if I am correct. Mr. RICCARDI. Correct.

Mr. KEARNS. He not only resigned, but he was out, and he was fined. We were up there on Monday night, and the next day was Tuesday, and that afternoon they had this hearing and he was reinstated, and the American Fderation of Musicians became very much interested in the festival then.

As a matter of fact, the Province of Quebec underwrote it for $3,000. It was not a commercial festival in any sense.

The Province gave $3,000 to it.

Then I was led to understand that after that meeting the American Federation of Musicians promised $24,000 as a gift from the welfare fund to help promote the festival in future years.

Am I correct?

Mr. RICCARDI. I really don't know. That would be a local project. Mr. KEARNS. That would not come out of any of your national funds?

Mr. RICCARDI. Well, it might come out this way: that each local, under this plan, is allocated a certain amount of money based on its membership, and now they are free to utilize it any way they want, and they may have decided to utilize that money for that purpose.

Mr. KEARNS. But when they called you in New York you refused to let them go ahead, did you not?

Mr. RICCARDI. On the basis of the information Dr. Cooper gave me, which I believe was substantiated by the fact that the recording company advertised the sale of those records.

Mr. KEARNS. And Mr. Cooper has been reinstated in the union and is now in good standing; is that correct?

Mr. RICCARDI. I understand that to be a fact, and that is also a local matter. The local handled it all.

Mr. KEARNS. Do you wish to question, Mr. Nixon?

Mr. NIXON. There is one point I am interested in.

Mr. Petrillo testified yesterday that the international had control over the affairs of the locals only for the purpose of calling a strike. I think the record, if he reads it carefully, will show he said that at least three times in his testimony yesterday.

From his testimony today it appears that on questions of recording amateur music, or school music, that it is necessary that the local contact the international.

Is that the case?

Mr. PETRILLO. That is right.

Mr. NIXON. In other words, that is an exception to your statement of yesterday.

Mr. PETRILLO. Because the recordings are international.

Mr. NIXON. In other words, in the case of recordings, whether it is a recording that will affect only a small area, as was the case here, or any other recording, the local has no power to make any contracts regarding recording without getting the approval of the international.

Mr. PETRILLO. It cannot make any contract on recording, Congressman, because it would not be workable, because one local would charge $1.10 for a recording, another $15, another $6, and we wouldn't have a scale.

Mr. NIXON. I understand you probably have reasons for the rule, but it is well, I think, to get that point in the record.

In other words, you not only have control over your locals when it comes to calling strikes, but you also have control over the locals when it comes to a matter of making recordings.

Is there any other field in which you have control over the locals?