Mr. PETRILLO. Yes. We have what we call traveling bands-these bands that go from hotel to hotel, cafe to cafe, and city to city.

We have traveling musicians with musical shows that come under the national scale.

We have the Hollywood situation, where the musicians make pictures in Hollywood. That is on the national scale.

Mr. NIXON. Let us suppose a Los Angeles local wanted some of its musicians to make a transcontinental broadcast from Los Angeles, could they do it?

Mr. PETRILLO. Broadcast? Yes.

Mr. NIXON. Could they do it without conferring with you?

Mr. PETRILLO. That is right.

Mr. NIXON. No permission would be required?

Mr. PETRILLO. Ño.

Mr. KEARNS. Congressman Barden, of North Carolina, do you have any questions?

Mr. BARDEN. I would like to ask the gentleman a question.

If you passed upon that question and denied it as the result of a phone message, a phone message from Quebec-is that the way it was passed upon?

Mr. RICCARDI. Just as I described it.

Mr. BARDEN. That is all the information you had. You talked to him over the phone, and denied it?

Mr. RICCARDI. That is right.

Mr. BARDEN. How many people were involved in that?

Mr. RICCARDI. I really don't know; Dr. Cooper didn't tell me.

Mr. BARDEN. And you later learned there were 12,000 children involved?

Mr. RICCARDI. I understand it was quite a sizable group.

Mr. BARDEN. Do you think that is a very good system for America to adopt, for one fellow to sit down and act on a phone message from one person and say, "No" or "Yes," when 12,000 children are involved and 150,000,000 people in the United States must abide by your decision?

Mr. RICCARDI. Mr. Congressman, Dr. Cooper or any other authority there, I should think, had plenty of time to ascertain that sufficiently in advance.

It appeared that when the call was made there was no time left but to make the call, no time left to make any further investigation.

Mr. BARDEN. Would you like to live in a country where the rest of your economic and social life was ruled over by one man, or could be ruled over by one man, who made decisions on that sort of information?

Mr. RICCARDI. Well, I think this was an emergency, Mr. Congress

man.

Apparently they waited until the last minute to get the decision. Mr. BARDEN. It is worse if it was an emergency. Emergency means something rather serious.

Mr. RICCARDI. That is right.

Mr. BARDEN. And yet you, fully realizing the power you had, had no reluctance whatever in squeezing them and saying, "That is the end of it."

Mr. RICCARDI. Based on what he told us, we did not think we were squeezing them, Mr. Congressman.

Mr. BARDEN. Well, maybe that was very important to them. Would you like to have a court to pass upon your rights in that way?

Mr. RICCARDI. I don't know what you mean by a court. I say there was sufficient time for Dr. Cooper to have furnished us with all the information on the case in advance, because it was not prepared at the last moment; arrangements had been made here in advance.

Mr. BARDEN. Haven't you kind of gotten yourself into the habit of thinking everybody in the United States should come and ask you what to do?

Mr. RICCARDI. No; I respectfully disagree with you, Mr. Congressman, as to that statement.

Mr. BARDEN. Did you have any idea of the importance of the occasion?

Mr. RICCARDI. I did.

Mr. BARDEN. And you were fully aware of the fact that you had within your grasp the power to say, "Yes" or "No," finally.

Mr. RICCARDI. Yes; I did.

Mr. BARDEN. Were you wrong?

Mr. RICCARDI. I don't believe I was.

Mr. BARDEN. Is there a doubt about it in your mind?

Mr. RICCARDI. There isn't the slightest doubt.

Mr. BARDEN. Would you do it again?

Mr. RICCARDI. I would.

Mr. BARDEN. I have no other questions.

Mr. KEARNS. Mr. Riccardi, Mr. Cooper negotiated up there with the local union for a long time about that matter, and the whole truth of the matter is that they maneuvered themselves into a position and they could not wiggle out of it, and they decided that you would make the final decision on the matter, and they called you.

Mr. NIXON. Did the local union contact you before Mr. Cooper did? Mr. RICCARDI. No; they did not.

Mr. NIXON. Yet, when Mr. Cooper called you, you had the answer right away.

Mr. RICCARDI. On the facts he gave me.

Mr. NIXON. Even before he gave you the facts.

Mr. RICCARDI. Oh, no.

Mr. NIXON. You had no contract with the local union whatever—

Mr. RICCARDI. I don't believe I had.

Mr. NIXON. On this matter before Dr. Cooper called you?

Mr. RICCARDI. I don't recall it. The only contract I recall was this telephone call.

Mr. NIXON. You were not familiar with any of the facts except through the telephone call from Dr. Cooper?

Mr. RICCARDI. That is correct.

Mr. NIXON. And you had made no decision on it?

Mr. RICCARDI. That is correct.

Mr. KEARNS. Mr. Riccardi, you just told Mr. Barden you would

do the same thing over again.

Of course, you won't if we have this understanding.

Mr. RICCARDI. No.

Mr. KEARNS. I think you were definitely wrong when you would not permit that one record to be made for posterity.

Mr. RICCARDI. I was never asked that. The only contact I hadMr. KEARNS. They never asked you for the single record?

Mr. RICCARDI. No; I was never asked that. The only contact I had was that one situation.

Mr. KEARNS. So you think the local was wrong in denying them the opportunity to make that single record?

Mr. RICCARDI. I don't know.

Mr. KEARNS. Well, do you think they were wrong?

Mr. RICCARDI. I don't know, unless I have the facts.

Mr. KEARNS. Let us assume the facts. Let us assume you had a case which came up to you in New York, involving 12,000 school children, and the local contacted you and asked for permission to make 1 record for those 12,000 school children.

Would it be your policy to allow the making of that one record? Mr. RICCARDI. As a matter of fact, Mr. Congressman, we have cleared other festivals where they assured us the recording would only go to the children.

Mr. KEARNS. Then it would be your policy to allow the making of that one record?

Mr. RICCARDI. That is correct.

Mr. KEARNS. What festivals have you recorded?

Mr. RICCARDI. Hamilton, N. J.

Mr. KEARNS. How many others?

Mr. RICCARDI. I don't recall offhand, but I can submit it for the record.

Mr. NIXON. You say you cannot remember them right now? Will you submit a full list of all the festivals where the international has approved the making of recordings?

Mr. RICCARDI. I will be glad to do that.

(The letter accompanying the list appearing below said, in part, "We are enclosing herewith a partial list of these schools, which we can assure you contains a very small number of those we have in our files. This is sent to you as an indication of our attitude toward requests made for recordings for educational purposes." The partial list is as follows:)

PARTIAL LIST OF SCHOOLS TO WHICH PERMISSION WAS GIVEN FOR THE MAKING OF RECORDINGS FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES

Fordham University, New York, N. Y.

Columbia University, New York, N. Y.

Education Section, United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization.

Whittier College, Whittier, Calif.

Northwestern University, Evanston, Ill.

Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio.

Bureau for Intercultural Education, New York, N. Y.

Westover School, Middlebury, Conn.

New York State College for Teachers, Albany, N. Y.

Dartmouth College, Hanover, N. H.

Diocesan Superintendent of Schools, Philadelphia, Pa.

Eastman School of Music, Rochester, N. Y.

George Peabody College for Teachers, Nashville, Tenn.

Horace Mann-Lincoln School, Teachers College, Columbia University, New York, N. Y.

Institute for Democratic Education, New York, N. Y.

Jewish Theological Seminary of America, New York, N. Y.

St. Louis Board of Education, St. Louis, Mo.

Los Angeles City Board of Education, Los Angeles, Calif.
Tulane University, New Orleans, La.

Portland Public Schools, Portland, Oreg.
Pittsburgh Public Schools, Pittsburgh, Pa.
Rochester Public Schools, Rochester, N. Y.
Superintendent of Schools, LaPorte, Ind.

San Francisco Unified School District, San Francisco, Calif.
University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, Minn.

United Negro College Fund, Inc., New York, N. Y.

Divinity School, University of Chicago, Chicago, Ill.

College of Agriculture, University of California, Berkeley, Calif.
Union College, Schenectady, N. Y.

University of Wisconsin, Madison, Wis.

Giles County High School, Pulaski, Tenn.

Purdue University, Lafayette, Ind.

University of Chicago, Chicago, Ill.

Board of Foreign Missions, Presbyterian Church, New York, N. Y.
Archdiocese of New York, New York, N. Y.

Brick Presbyterian Church, New York, N. Y.

Calvary Rectory, New York, N. Y.

Minnesota Jewish Council, Minneapolis, Minn. (for use in school systems throughout the State).

Mr. MCCANN. May I ask a few questions?

Mr. KEARNS. Yes.

Mr. MCCANN. Mr. Riccardi, isn't it a matter of fact that you have a closed-shop agreement with all the recording companies of the United States which makes it impossible for them to make a recording for anyone at any time without your permission?

Mr. RICCARDI. That is correct.

Mr. MCCANN. In other words, it is impossible for a man who wants to make one recording of his song to go to a recording company and have a recording made of that song, is it not?

Mr. RICCARDI. I would say that is correct.

Mr. MCCANN. Without your permission?
Mr. RICCARDI. That is right.

Mr. MCCANN. It is a fact that it is impossible for any school in the United States to go to a recording company and say, "We want records made of our school band," without your permission.

Mr. RICCARDI. If he went to a union recorder, that would be so. Mr. MCCANN. He couldn't go to any recording company in the United States and get it done without your permission?

Mr. RICCARDI. If he were a union recorder.

Mr. MCCANN. Are there any recorders who are not union?

Mr. RICCARDI. There are many.

Mr. MCCANN. He could not go to any major recording company in the United States and have that done, could he?

Mr. RICCARDI. No; he could not.

Mr. MCCANN. Isn't it a fact that there have occurred occasions when people have gone to recording companies and asked for the right to make recordings of their song, and you have asked for a $1,000 cash bond from them in order to make the recording of their own songs? Mr. RICCARDI. If you will permit me to explain, I will answer it. Mr. MCCANN. Answer "Yes" or "No," and then explain. Mr. RICCARDI. I can't answer that way.

Mr. MCCANN. I ask you if it is not a fact that applications have been made by an individual to a recording company to record that individual's songs, and the recording company has been required, before that could be done, to furnish a $1,000 bond.

Mr. KEARNS. The witness has a right to explain.

Go ahead and explain, Mr. Witness.

Mr. RICCARDI. I will explain, Congressman, that when we executed these contracts with the recording companies, we did so in good faith, and we executed any number of them.

Some time later we found that they were defaulting on their payments not only to the federation, but also defaulting to the members who had rendered service to them.

So along about a year ago-and I might say that a good number of them went into bankruptcy, so that we could not recover the moneys due us, or recover the moneys due the federation members who had rendered service-so that we adopted a policy after that that any recording company that signed a contract with us, we required that they post a $1,000 bond, to be held in escrow, and to be utilized in case of any default either to the federation or to the members who rendered service.

If that answers your question, there are the facts.

Mr. MCCANN. As of this date, though, there isn't a church choir in the United States, there isn't a school in the United States, there isn't an individual in the United States, who can make a recording without getting your permission, or have one made by any union recording company.

Mr. RICCARDI. That is correct.

Mr. MCCANN. Now, the great service bands of this country, in Washington, D. C., are not permitted to make recordings, are they? Mr. RICCARDI. I don't know what you mean by that.

Mr. KEARNS. Shouldn't that question be directed to Mr. Petrillo? Mr. MCCANN. I thought he was in charge of recordings.

Mr. KEARNS. I think Mr. Petrillo can better answer that question. Mr. MCCANN. All right; the question is withdrawn.

Mr. KEARNS. If that is agreeable to you.

Mr. MCCANN. Yes, sir.

FURTHER TESTIMONY OF JAMES C. PETRILLO-Recalled

Mr. KEARNS. Mr. Petrillo, now that we have had the picture of this Montreal festival, the international festival there, can you say for the development of musical education and good relationship between Canada and the United States, that was poorly handled up there, that there must have been somebody who muffed the ball terribly?

Mr. PETRILLO. Well, it went to the local, and from the local it came to our office, as Mr. Riccardi explained. And the question of commercial gets into the thing.

When the commercial situation gets mixed into it, we have the right to say to anybody that if our people cannot make money where there is a commercial situation involved, then we have to go out of business.

It is very well for everybody to sit around and be a patriot-and we are just as much patriots as anybody in the country, and when we talk about children, we all have children, and children have no more right than anybody else to take the bread and butter away from musicians. Mr. KEARNS. I agree with that.

Mr. PETRILLO. And you agreed with me when you started to talk. Mr. KEARNS. Yes, sir; I agree with that.