Mr. PETRILLO. If they can't strike, I can't use them.

Mr. KEARNS. Mr. Petrillo, to come back to the service-band angle, would there be anything wrong with the people throughout America being able to buy records of the service bands for home use, as long as the records were not played for commercial use?

Mr. PETRILLO. Why ask me to make a definite statement at this time?

Why can't we do the same with that situation as we are going to do with the music educators? Why can't we sit down with the department heads of the Army Band and see just what they have in mind, and see if we can't work out some plan where no one will be hurt, and the children will be educated to those bands?

Mr. KEARNS. Well, Mr. Petrillo, if you do that, I think that also would be a marvelous step toward the forwarding of music education for the children.

I certainly appreciate your attitude about it. I think it is very fine. Mr. PETRILLO, O. K. We will do that.

Mr. KEARNS. All right.

We might even go so far as allowing some church choirs to do business, because that does not affect

Mr. PETRILLO. While we are talking about the Government, what are we going to do about President Truman? He plays the piano.

Mr. KEARNS. I will make the suggestion that we pay him as a stand-by. How is that?

Mr. NIXON. In that connection, you might be quite interested in some of the complaints we have received from various radio stations. Speaking of stand-ins, this does not involve a president, but it does involve a mayor in another country. Up in Philadelphia recently one of the women commentators had a guest on that program, and the guest was the mayor of Mexico City. We are all interested in good pan-American relationships. It so happened that the mayor of Mexico City is also a very accomplished pianist, and he wanted to play the piano over the air during the interview. The station was required to pay for a stand-by musician while he played the piano.

Mr. PETTRILLO. The mayor of Mexico City?

Mr. NIXON. That is right.

Mr. PETRILLO. Did we get paid in Mexican money?

Mr. NIXON. It was apparently good money because the American Federation of Musicians does not accept any other kind.

Mr. KEARNS. Do you have any questions on the service bands?

Mr. PETRILLO. Speaking of Mexico, our Pittsburgh orchestra went to Mexico about 6 months ago, and from all the information we can get they had to put up $6,000 in stand-by money for about six concerts, about $1,000 a concert.

Mr. Nixon. I am glad that you brought that point up, because Mr. Padway yesterday was pointing out that the British are also, in the field of motion pictures, adopting so-called restrictive practices. It seems to me that the attitude that you have taken in pointing out these practices is something like this, that what every country should do is to adopt the same restrictive practices that you have. We will each build a wall around our own music, we will require stand-bys if the Mexico City orchestra comes here because they require stand-bys if we send the Minneapolis orchestra down there. The same thing should

be true in Britain and all over the world. I am wondering, Mr. Padway, how that jibes with your recent statement in which you strongly supported reciprocal trade agreements.

Mr. PADWAY. I do not want to go into reciprocal trade agreements, because that is President Green's function. I do know that the American Federation of Labor is on record for reciprocal trade agreements.

Mr. NIXON. That is for the reduction of tariffs, trade barriers, barriers even affecting labor?

Mr. PADWAY. That is right. However, we find in the American Federation of Labor certain international unions like the American Federation of Musicians which find it to their interest and for the protection of their membership to take an opposite view. The American Federation of Labor merely speaks as the entity, but not directly for every one of the internationals, and while it is on record in favor of these agreements, that is true. You see, the situation we have here is again the American Federation of Musicians is the one trade that is in the most peculiar position with respect to what we may call foreign labor. Every other trade, or every other craft, or every other international union, to compete with us, at least in this country, has to come to this country and perform the physical or manual labor on the spot. It must do so within the confines of the United States. It might be true of singers if they have their union, and they do have; with the singers it is the same parallel.

Mr. McCANN. Mr. Chairman, I think this was all included in the lengthy statement by him, and I see no reason to duplicate the testi

mony now.

Mr. NIXON. I should like to hear the balance of this statement.

Mr. PADWAY. The musicians are in the position of the work being performed on the foreign shore. It is one thing to say, as you do say in your immigration law, contract labor shall be inhibited. That means a man has a contract in advance to come here and perform labor that is not unique or outstanding in character. He does not come into the country because he is displacing the American worker. You see, with the musicians, he does not come into the country. Technological progress has made it possible for him to perform labor in some other country and displace our people. There may be a very valid argument in what you say, and I assume you have reached the conclusion it would be a fine thing to have our music go over there and their music come over here. If that is to be done, it would require the officers of the American Federation of Musicians, the officers of the British, and the officers of Mexico to come to an understanding, and they may come to a fine understanding respecting those things. Let me tell you there has been some discussion in that regard, but no agreement yet. Until that discussion is resolved and until something is done, you cannot blame the American musicians for endeavoring to protect their labor from foreign competition.

That is the sole answer to it.

Mr. NIXON. Of course, in your statement now you have devoted most of your argument entirely to broadcasting. In other words, the ability of foreign musicians to get their music here through technological development.

Mr. PADWAY. Yes, sir.

66874-47-vol. 1——18

Mr. NIXON. The point we were discussing, as you will recall, was the case of a foreign musician who came into this country-the mayor of Mexico City.

Mr. PADWAY. I beg your pardon.

Mr. NIXON. He was here physically, and they were required to pay a stand-by fee.

Mr. PADWAY. I do not know the circumstances of that. I would say if it were just a mere request and for good relations it might have been granted by the union, but I do not know all the facts and circumstances. It may be that there was a sort of retaliatory hitch in there because of the $6,000 that these people had to put up or something. You have to know that. I am not saying that is the fact.

Mr. NIXON. Then I understand it is not the policy of the American Federation of Labor or the American Federation of Musicians to build up barriers between the various countries in which the unions in our country will allow only their own members to perform in that country and will not allow other musicians to broadcast or to come into the country unless they are also members of the particular unions involved?

Mr. PETRILLO. We have just here recently given permission for the London Symphony Orchestra and the Mexico City orchestra and several other symphony orchestras in Europe to appear in America to play concerts, because we feel it is noncompetitive. If they did not play their concerts, say, in Washington, no one would be playing, but it is musical culture.

Mr. NIXON. But you have not given them permission to broadcast? Mr. PETRILLO. Not broadcast.

Speaking on the subject, Congressman, at the time I was going to Europe and I received a summons from Mr. Hartley that I could not go to Europe because I had to appear before this committee. It was for the reason of getting in touch with the English musicians and getting up what we call a world federation of musicians. I do not have much faith in it myself, but we were going to have that meeting. On account of this committee we have postponed that till next October. Mr. NIXON. In other words, if somebody wants to make a record for a school festival in Budapest, he would have to contact Mr. McCarthy? Mr. PETRILLO. They did not get that agreement.

Mr. PADWAY. It is not what is the policy of the American Federation of Musicians only in that regard; it is the policy of the United States, the policy set down by Congress, and if we look over the immigration laws we will find that to protect the American musicians there is a clause in there that subjects musicians, regardless of how talented or otherwise, except in an exceptional case, to the same restrictions that are placed on labor, work in general, and we are very gratified over that, and when we have these technological things to contend with, that is a protective device. So Congress has set a policy that American musicians should receive protection that other workers receive in the matter of immigration and other laws that pertain to that subject. Mr. KEARNS. Mr. Petrillo, I would like you to relinquish the chair. I have another witness who has to catch a train.

Mr. MCCANN. May I make a statement on this general subject that has not been introduced in the record?

The comment has been made that recently in Mexico City there was a charge of $6,000 for the Pittsburgh orchestra to play down there.

We have a complaint in our files to the effect that the reason charges were being made in Mexico against our orchestras was that on a recent trip of the Mexican orchestra to the west coast, the locals of the American Federation of Musicians had required stand-by orchestras to be paid, and that the Mexico situation was in retaliation of the conduct of the American Federation of Musicians.

Mr. NIXON. In fact, it could probably be elaborated to the extent of saying that the Mexican symphony orchestra, as a result of that practice, had to cancel concert after concert on the west coast, particularly in California, as I recall, and that I would say a great deal of harm was done to the good feeling between the two countries as a result of those practices.

Mr. PETRILLO. Now you would not agree that these Mexican bands could come to America and play these carnivals and festivals?

Mr. NIXON. I have heard the Mexican symphony orchestra, Mr. Petrillo, and it is the same type of orchestra as the London Symphony and the others. It does not play at carnivals and festivals.

Mr. PETRILLO. They have permission to come in here. But they did come in and play our circuses along the west coast-not the symphony-a 35-piece orchestra, I think. Certainly we are not going to stand idle and have them come in here and take our jobs away from us.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE JENNINGS, DIRECTOR OF RADIO FOR THE CHICAGO PUBLIC SCHOOLS, CHICAGO, ILL.

(The witness was duly sworn.)

Mr. KEARNS. Mr. Jennings, when I was in Chicago we had an interview with you pertaining to your work in the city of Chicago. For the record I should like you to give us your name and address, your occupation, and in your own way tell me how the Chicago Board of Education broadcasting station in the city of Chicago has to operate with music.

Mr. JENNINGS. My name is George Jennings. I reside at 4811 Kimbark, Chicago. I am director of radio for the Chicago public schools.

In the capacity of director for radio, I am in charge of all broadcasting done by all divisions of the school system. We also operate our own frequency-modulation station and we feed programs to commercial stations.

In the some 10 years we have been broadcasting over commercial stations, we have run across a great number of problems concerning music. It seems rather water over the dam to talk about these problems in the light of Mr. Petrillo's statement this morning.

Mr. KEARNS. That is correct.

Mr. JENNINGS. I would just as soon not discuss them. I would place my faith in Mr. Petrillo that we will get together the music educators, radio educators, and so forth, and thrash out these difficulties. Unless the chairman requests me to, I would prefer to leave it at that.

Mr. KEARNS. There is one statement I would like you to leave for the record, and I, too, have faith in Mr. Petrillo as to what he says he will do.

I think for the record you should tell us what your program has been in the past so far as music is concerned in the city of Chicago. Mr. JENNINGS. For 2 years we broadcast an elementary-school choir. This elementary-school choir had to be unaccompanied, or a cappella, because as a taxpaying institution we did not have the money to pay a stand-by musician at the commercial station.

We have not been able to use any instrumentalists on any station because as a taxpaying institution we do not have a budget to pay stand-by union fees.

I believe in the 10 years of my experience in Chicago only once, or at most twice, have we used a student on a sustaining programrather, that student has been paid. Let me put it this way: a stand-by has been paid for that student.

In two instances the National Broadcasting Co. did pay a stand-by fee so that one of our students could appear on a sustaining program. That, very briefly, is the story. We do not broadcast music; we do not broadcast orchestras; we do not broadcast instrumentalists. We have given up choir broadcasting because elementary voices need the support of a piano or some kind of accompaniment.

Does that answer your question?

Mr. KEARNS. Yes.

Mr. Nixon, do you have any questions?

Mr. NIXON. No.

Mr. KEARNS. Mr. Barden?

Mr. BARDEN. You mean this station you speak of is maintained by the taxpayers of the city of Chicago?

Mr. JENNINGS. Our FM station is; yes.

Mr. BARDEN. And the schools are maintained by the taxpayers?
Mr. JENNINGS. That is right.

Mr. BARDEN. And your salary is paid by the taxpayers?

Mr. JENNINGS. That is right.

Mr. BARDEN. And you have not been able to give to the taxpayers of the city of Chicago the benefit of the trained voices, and so forth, that they are paying to train in that school?

Mr. JENNINGS. That is substantially correct; yes. I would go a little bit further. We haven't been able to give our students in these schools-because our FM station is primarily a school-time stationwe have not been able to give them the benefits of hearing other choirs, and so forth.

Mr. BARDEN. These are not commercial broadcasts?

Mr. JENNINGS. We have never had a sponsored broadcast. The minute a broadcast is sponsored, that student, if he is one of our students, comes under the rules of the federation, and that is their business with the local station. We have nothing to do with it.

Mr. BARDEN. Let me get this straight. You mean the schools in Chicago maintain this broadcast station as an instrumentality of the school and that your students are trained at the expense of taxpayers? Mr. JENNINGS. That is substantially correct.

Mr. BARDEN. Then they cannot use that which they have a right to use under any kind of interpretation?

Mr. JENNINGS. Not unless we want to argue with the union about it, and we don't care to argue with the union about it.

Mr. BARDEN. What did they tell you when you asked them about it?