Now, I am not interested in coming here just to fuss with somebody. We have a job to do and our job is certainly in the interest of the national welfare. That is all my interest. I could not turn a tone with a monkey wrench.

Mr. PETRILLO. That is why I had to quit, too.

Mr. BARDEN. These are abuses that American people are not going to long tolerate. You have a great deal of responsibility in your organization, and you are in a position to render the people and your organization a great service by helping this committee-by suggesting some remedies. If you do not have enough implements to clear up these situations, why, then, maybe you might want some assistance. So, if you can give us any suggestions, we will be glad to have them.

Mr. PETRILLO. Well, of course the corrections must come from the federation, and there is no doubt in my mind that there will be many corrections.

Mr. BARDEN. I do not believe that the American people are going to like the idea much. It sounds very impractical for them to come to you or just a select group in the country to pass upon the national policy with reference to matters of this kind. The American people do not like to go to one man to establish national policies. They do not even like to go to the President on matters of that kind, and when they do, then the pattern is set for New York, Chicago, and the semirural sections or the small towns, and so forth, which have to fall in line with that general pattern. So the very variety of conditions, States, and peoples in this country fail to make me very optimistic about your ability to settle all these problems by just sitting down and saying, "Now we will do so-and-so, and we won't do that.' an inquisitive type of citizenry in this country, and they like to know something about their own business, and in this Chicago school matter I cannot visualize a situation of that kind going on. I am wondering if you are going to take any steps to clear it up.

We have

Mr. PETRILLO. I will look into the matter and do what I can to adjust it.

Mr. BARDEN. If you see a picture like that gentleman described, what are you going to do?

Mr. PETRILLO. Well, now, we have got a job to do, too, as musicians. Mr. BARDEN. Yes; and I do not want it done on us.

Mr. PETRILLO. Nobody is going to do it on you.

Mr. BARDEN. Like the newspapers you were talking about doing a job on yourself.

Mr. PETRILLO. We have a job to do and that is why we are organized, and primarily we have got to look out for our bread and butter. I believe that comes first. We all must eat.

Mr. PADWAY. Mr. Chairman, I did not want to avail myself of the opportunity, even though you granted it, of examining witnesses unless it is a very, very important matter, but I would like to ask the last witness that was on the stand from Chicago whether he ever officially brought the FM, talking about the FM situation, to the attention of the Chicago board. I would like to know that. I am of the opinion that I do not think it has ever been brought to the attention of the Chicago board-that he just relied on the fact that it would not be done.

Mr. KEARNS. Has the gentleman left?

(No response.)

Mr. PADWAY. One of the Chicago officials who was here this morning told me that that situation was never brought to the attention of the Chicago Federation of Musicians. They evidently assumed it would never be granted. Just as he said, they do not use the music, they do not put them on, and so forth.

If he had brought it to the attention of the American Federation of Musicians and he had been turned down, he would have just cause for grievance.

Mr. BARDEN. I did hear him make the statement that on two occasions somebody else did pay the stand-by fee.

Mr. PADWAY. On commercial.

Mr. NIXON. I think Mr. Padway has put his finger on the difficulty throughout the country. We have a number of complaints of this type on school music. In each case Mr. Petrillo's answer, I think, has been somewhat the same and it would be the same if we brought these other complaints before him-it was never brought to my attention, they never asked me.

Now, in that connection, the reason, of course, that possibly some of these cases were not brought to his specific attention and that the local was not asked is that experience in the past indicated that asking would not do much good. The point I wish to make is this, that it seems that the policy of the American Federation of Musicians is to treat each one of these cases throughout the country individually, and, of course, there are thousands of school orchestras and bands and symphonies involved.

Before they can do anything in the way of broadcasting, they must get permission for each of the individual broadcasts, for everything that is done. That is why I think that it is extremely important that a national policy be laid down by the federation which will get away from the necessity of individual inquiries in every case.

Also, I think it will have the effect of possibly getting a better press for Mr. Petrillo, because from his attitude here he apparently would not be too reluctant to grant permission in many of these cases, but he is so busy he does not have the opportunity to look into them personally unless he is asked.

So, in order to avoid thousands of these requests coming up every time a school broadcast is made, it would seem that Mr. Petrillo could lay down a national policy, as he indicated he will.

Mr. PADWAY. You are right on that. The problems are so big that we have to consider them nationally and, with the assistance of Mr. Petrillo, do consider them and, in general instances, the policy is laid down.

Let me show you how deceptive testimony can be. For instance, the witness talked about bands-the high-school kids cannot go in bands.

Well, it all depends, you know. You have to look at it this way: Suppose it is a large parade, not a civic parade, but a parade of the Shriners and anyone else who want to whoop it up. They like to get as many bands as they can free, but if you stop and think, it puts out of work bands of musicians. They are unemployed. They want to march. They want to work. It is their bread and butter. They have children to educate and send to school. You have to lay down a general rule.

When a thing gets too fast and too great you have to say in every band connected, let us say, with a nonpatriotic and fraternal enterprise, musicians shall be employed because, if not, they will put 1 band at the head and you will see a trail of 20 bands of these high-school boys and girls that will go along and play.

Mr. MCCANN. That was not what he said. He said the school bands were not permitted to play in the city of Chicago in any parade or any place except in the school building.

Mr. PADWAY. Î misunderstood the evidence.

Mr. MCCANN. I think those are arguments which we can do without. Mr. PADWAY. You can do without them, but we cannot.

Mr. MCCANN. I do not think they explain the situation.

Mr. BARDEN. We have a very fine high-school band in the little town in which I live. They have a radio station. I have never heard that band over the air and I am wondering if there is any order outstanding that would prohibit that radio station broadcasting the band.

Mr. PADWAY. It depends what it was used for. It depends on what city it was put on. It depends on the particular time. Îf a band were put on free-I do not know if this is the rule of the federation, I am not familiar with all their rules, but I would say it would be perfectly justifiable for the American Federation of Musicians to make the rule for that high-school band.

put on a program from They might want to say, We have known of bands

Let us say that high-school band was to 7:30 to 8 o'clock, which is the best time. "Look, that is the time when we can work." having been taken off very fine stations and at prominent hours just to put on a school band or a free band.

There are certain rules that have to be made for the musician who lives off his music to be able to live off it.

That is one of the problems that you present now that can very well come up at this conference and iron it out.

For instance, it might be agreed that a school band in such-and-such cities, major cities, shall not occupy the time between 7 and 8 in the evening when you and your family listen to the larger bands, and so on. You may have justice on your side in making a complaint, but they have to be regulated.

Mr. BARDEN. The thing that intrigues me is the pattern that you seem to want to follow. It is wholly inconsistent with the atmosphere in which I was reared. I do not get your pattern. Of course, that pattern is strictly and wholly totalitarian.

Mr. PADWAY. No; I beg your pardon, Mr. Barden; the pattern is simply this: As Mr. Petrillo explained yesterday on questioning by Mr. Nixon, Mr. Kearns, and Mr. Fisher, it was explained time and again all that the American Federation of Musicians is attempting to do is to get jobs and work for the men who are its members and to see that they are adequately paid.

Mr. BARDEN. Now, Mr. Padway, all of us want to make as much money as we can honorably and reasonably make. All of us like to do that.

Mr. PADWAY. Yes.

Mr. BARDEN. The musicians have no monopoly on that.

Mr. PADWAY. No.

Mr. BARDEN. But heretofore we have had the idea that monopolies were inconsistent with our American way of life and we have written

some pretty strong, clear-cut language on the question of monopolies. Now, a fight was put up for those monopolies by the men who said we can make more bread and butter, we can make more money, if we have a monopoly, and the American people said, "Just a minute, you have to have some regard for other people's rights along that line.” Mr. PADWAY. That is right.

Mr. BARDEN. Now will we not have to fit this pattern into our American way of life, otherwise we will have this man controlling everything here, this man controlling everything there, and John Q. Public taking the rap.

Mr. PADWAY. Mr. Barden, the difficulty is this: Congress itself has found it necessary-perhaps it will in the future, or has, let us say, a little in some of the recent bills that have been passed, recognizing that there may be a lessening of the necessity to exclude labor or exempt it from the monopoly statutes, but Congress as far back as 1896 exempted labor from the monopoly statute. It did so in 1914 under the Clayton Act when it said the labor of a human being is not a commodity of commerce. It discriminates between the labor of a human being and commodities. That was not totalitarian.

Mr. BARDEN. Laws are and should be patterned to meet certain situations and conditions as they arise.

Mr. PADWAY. That is what Mr. Kearns brought out this morning. If this committee did no other service, it did service in bringing out that fact.

Mr. BARDEN. Congress all these years, when the people call, usually comes along. A little late sometimes, but they will get there.

Mr. PADWAY. The best protection for this Nation is full employment and good wages, and that is all the American Federation of Musicians is seeking to do. They are seeking at least not to be invaded in that policy, which is the policy of all trade unions, by free labor, competitive amateur labor, and so on. There must be a line drawn where the amateur can come in and compete in the field of music.

Mr. BARDEN. Do you not think it is dangerous for the interested party to write his own rules?

Mr. PADWAY. No; the interested party does not want to write his own rules. That is why we have collective bargaining, and that is why we sit down with employees and agree on terms and conditions.

Mr. BARDEN. Has it not reached the point that when you sit down you tell them what they shall do?

Mr. PADWAY. They tell us, too. They come along with their experts. Sometimes their experts make my head swim.

Mr. NIXON. I thought you would be interested in a report which Mr. Petrillo made to the international musicians of January 1944. I will quote from his own language:

It would appear that some of these Congressmen and Senators certainly are less worried about winning the war than they are about getting us. These are the gentlemen who call themselves champions of democracy. They certainly tried to scare hell out of us. Well, by this time, the employers of musicians and those who do their bidding know that we do not scare so easily. However, when all the shooting was over and we came to the summer of 1943 there was no Interlochen High School student orchestra on the air, nor was there in the year 1943 any other school band or orchestra on the networks, and there never will be without the permission of the American Federation of Musicians. Mr. PETRILLO. Follow up.

Mr. NIXON. You follow it.

Mr. PETRILLO. If and when it interferes with the bread and butter of the musicians.

Mr. NIXON. But who tells them?

Mr. PETRILLO. We tell them.

Mr. NIXON. You tell them.

Mr. PETRILLO. And when.

Mr. KEARNS. The committee stands adjourned until 1:30 this afternoon.

(Whereupon, at 12 noon the hearing was recessed, to reconvene at 1:30 p. m. of the same day.)

AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 1: 45 p. m., pursuant to recess.

STATEMENT OF JAMES C. PETRILLO-Resumed

Mr. KEARNS. The hearing will come to order. Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Petrillo?

Mr. FETRILLO. Yes.

Mr. KEARNS. There are a couple of other cases I want to clear up. We were in the school field this morning, and while out in Chicago I was talking to Rudolph Gans. You know him very well; he is president of the Chicago Musical College.

Mr. PETRILLO. Yes.

Mr. KEARNS. They have 5,000 students there. He tells me that practically 50 percent of the enrollment are GIs. As you know, they have very fine instrumental instructors there, and although they specialize in large bands and orchestras they also go in for solo events and chamber music, and they are not permitted to broadcast that chamber music. I imagine we would include, when we are making that agreement about broadcasting musical education in the schools-we would include colleges, to some degree, there.

Mr. PETRILLO. We will cover the entire field of education.

Mr. KEARNS. I want to clear one thing for the record. I understand up at the Eastman School of Music in Rochester, N. Y., they have quite a large orchestra that broadcasts over the network; is that correct?

Mr. PETRILLO. They do broadcast. Mr. Needer, who handles radio in my office, says we have never had any request on the Rochester situation, one way or the other.

Mr. KEARNS. I wanted to find out about that. I understand that when a talented player on an instrument matriculated in the college he was asked to join the union, and it was included in his matriculation fee at the college. I wondered if that could be correct. I didn't think we were trying to collect union dues when a student would enroll in college.

Mr. NIXON. On that point, Mr. Kearns, I think it may be well, just to keep the record clear, to note that it is quite likely that Mr. Petrillo's national office would never receive a request of that kind, because Mr. Petrillo has testified several times that calling strikes was the only field in which he exercised jurisdiction over the locals. You said yesterday, Mr. Fetrillo, it was just strikes, but today you have added