Mr. PETRILLO. But a lot of bookers are not members of the federation.

Mr. MCCANN. You license a booker and his living is made on the basis of the business he does with your members?

Mr. PETRILLO. That is correct.

Mr. MCCANN. And without a trial you threw this man Fishman out in Los Angeles?

Mr. PETRILLO. Don't you bring up Fishman. If you bring up Fishman, he owes us so much money.

Mr. MCCANN. He owes you so much money?

Mr. PETRILLO. That we can pay half the debt here.

Mr. MCCANN. To whom does he owe money?
Mr. PETRILLO. He owes members money.

Mr. MCCANN. What members now?

Mr. PETRILLO. I can get the record for you.

Mr. MCCANN. He owes members of your association money?

Mr. PETRILLO. Of course, we wouldn't take his license away for no reason at all.

Mr. MCCANN. Did you not take his license away for the simple reason that there was a dispute as to whether it was $1,900, $1,700, or $1,300 he owed Mr. Mason who was a bandleader?

Mr. PETRILLO. I don't know. I do know this, that the legitimate booker who has a license in the American Federation of Musicians doesn't have trouble with the federation.

Mr. MCCANN. Did you have any trouble with Julius Caesar Stein in Chicago?

Mr. PETRILLO. Not in recent years.

Mr. MCCANN. Did you ever have any trouble?

Mr. PETRILLO. No.

Mr. MCCANN. Did your association have any trouble with him? Mr. PETRILLO. I don't know.

Mr. MCCANN. Is he not supposed to be receiving in the neighborhood of some $4,000,000 or $5,000,000 a year as a booker? Mr. PETRILLO. I think he makes more than that. Mr. MCCANN. Is he a booker licensed by you? Mr. PETRILLO. He is a member of the federation. Mr. McCANN. He is a member of the federation? Mr. PETRILLO. That is right.

Mr. MCCANN. Mr. Petrillo, assume that one of the teachers of music in the United States who is a member of your association should go out and teach at the Interlochen camp, would that be in violation of his oath of office for which his card might be taken away from him?

Mr. PETRILLO. The way the situation stands now, if he teaches at Interlochen, the school is on the unfair list, he would stand trial before the board and possibly lose his card.

Mr. MCCANN. And possibly lose his card?

Mr. PETRILLO. That is right.

Mr. MCCANN. Let us get back to this. Suppose that musician that was to have been married in New York in a hotel

Mr. PETRILLO. In Philadelphia.

Mr. MCCANN. Was it Philadelphia? He appealed to you to cross the picket line to get married that night. Would we have been thrown out of the union for crossing the picket line to get married? Mr. PETRILLO. He didn't appeal to me.

Mr. MCCANN. To whom did he appeal?

Mr. PETRILLO. He appealed to the local.

Mr. MCCANN. Did they deny him the right?

Mr. PETRILLO. I don't know what he did, but getting married in the hotel was unfair to the federation. I think he got married

anyway.

Mr. MCCANN. Now you say the picket line is a very sacred thing with you?

Mr. PETRILLO. That is what he said.

Mr. MCCANN. Is it a very sacred thing with you?

Mr. PETRILLO. I don't know. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't work. In our profession it doesn't seem to work. We don't practice it very much.

Mr. MCCANN. Do you enforce the rule against your musicians if you establish a picket line?

Mr. PETRILLO. We had a strike in New York City last Labor Day and we had a meeting with the local, and the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel, where I live in New York, was involved in the strike, and they said they were going to put picket lines around the hotels that were on strike, and, by God, by the time the picket line was there and I couldn't get in my room, so I had to sleep in Teaneck that night.

Mr. MCCANN. Supposing a musician crossed that picket line and played in that hotel, what would happen to him?

Mr. PETRILLO. He would lose his card.

Mr. MCCANN. He would be fined?

Mr. PETRILLO. He would be fined and lose his card with it.

Mr. MCCANN. So it only takes one man?

Mr. PETRILLO. Not me-I am talking about the board.

Mr. MCCANN. I did not say you, but it only takes one man to picket

a place on the part of the American Federation of Musicians and that place is closed to all members of the organization?

Mr. PETRILLO. That is right.

Mr. MCCANN. None of them would dare cross the line because it would mean the loss of their livelihood?

Mr. PETRILLO. That is right.

Mr. MCCANN. And the loss of their future operations in the business of music?

Mr. PETRILLO. For the time being.

Mr. MCCANN. In other words, it is a pretty serious thing for your union for a man to dare cross a picket line?

Mr. PETRILLO. In any union.

Mr. PADWAY. That situation was recognized in the Taft-Hartley bill and there is a specific provision that permits men who, by their conscience and who are union men, who do not wish to cross a union line, may avail themselves of this privilege and not cross it, provided it is an authoritative strike, not a wildcat strike.

Mr. NIXON. In fact, Mr. Padway, I think you will admit that is one of the good provisions of the Taft-Hartley bill which you in your analysis very seldom mentioned before the bill was passed.

Mr. PADWAY. Let me say this. The reason we did not mention it before the bill was passed is that it was not written that way. The conference committee wrote it that way.

Mr. NIXON. While the President was trying to determine whether to veto it or approve it. In all the various analyses of the bill that

I have read by you and the other people who were opposing it, I do not think I ever found one word suggesting that there might be a provision in there that was not antilabor.

Mr. PADWAY. You do not have all the literature. I will show you where we wrote in, or rather acknowledged, there are several good provisions. Certainly we would not oppose craft set-up which gave us the integrity of the craft set-up. We say there are a few provisions that are good, of the many, in a very bad bill.

Mr. NIXON. I think there is no need for you to try to convince me there are good provisions in it. In fact, I imagine there are more good ones than you realize.

Mr. PADWAY. We will discuss that at lunch and I know you will enjoy it.

Mr. PETRILLO. I bet you will pay for the lunch.

Mr. KEARNS. Have you finished, Mr. McCann?

Mr. MCCANN. I am not through, sir. I do not know whether we are through for the day.

Mr. KEARNS. We can excuse him for the time being.

Mr. MCCANN. But still keep him under subpena so we can recall him?

Mr. PETRILLO. Can't we finish with this gentleman here so we can get rid of this thing if there is any chance at all?

Mr. MCCANN. Mr. Chairman, I have several things that I want to discuss in addition to what has been discussed. I would like to go into quite a few little issues on which I have not even opened the envelopes yet. I have matters on recording, law, and radio that I still have hot touched. However, if you wish to stop the hearing at this hour, it is perfectly agreeable with me.

Mr. KEARNS. There are a few questions that Mr. Nixon wants to ask. Will it be all right if he asks his questions now, and after we have had other witnesses, if you want to call Mr. Petrillo, we will do it then?

Mr. MCCANN. That will be fine.

Mr. NIXON. I just want to get together a few loose ends in your testimony to date, Mr. Petrillo, and see where the American Federation of Musicians stands at the present time.

As I recall, you stated that you had a little difficulty in dealing with the top management in radio, in records as of the present time, entertainment, and the other fields in which your musicians work. Generally, it is your practice to make contracts with the leaders, the big operators, since they seem to be the easiest to deal with, and to use that contract as a pattern for that entire group. Among the complaints which we have received I would say that most of them, or a large proportion of them, come not from the large operators-in fact, we have had several indications from the position you have taken, that they do get along with the American Federation of Musicians-but come from the small record company, the small radio station, from the entertainment place that is having difficulty making ends meet. It would seem that the result of your policies then is to make these contracts with more or less willing big operators in these fields, and then as a result of those contracts force the smaller operators out of busiIn fact, numbers of record companies have gone out of business in the last few months since the war. The same is true of small motion

ness.

picture companies and others. This is not due only to your practices but, I think, from your testimony and from the evidence that we have, that you have made contracts with the large operators which the small ones have been unable to meet.

Now, is that the policy of the feedration, or do you attempt to see the viewpoint of the smaller operators as well?

Mr. PETRILLO. Well, in most cases that is true for this reason, that the big operators are in the business to stay. The small operators come and go. You will find a small operator, when we make an agreement with the large operator, is not in business, but during the life of the contract he springs up.

Mr. MCCANN. It is to the interest, too, of the big operators to make a contract because as far as they are concerned, in many cases, they would just as soon have the small operators go out of business, would they not?

Mr. PETRILLO. In many cases, yes; but I will say this, they have never used us as a club, and I certainly wouldn't permit them to put anybody out of business.

Mr. NIXON. It is a fact that a number of small operators have gone out of business?

Mr. PETRILLO. In many cases, but I don't think it is always due to what the musicians did to them.

Mr. NIXON. What the musicians did and the other contracts made probably had an effect on them.

Mr. PETRILLO. Yes; but they always have a door open to come in and ask for a concession. We have a lot of concessions, especially the small locals.

Mr. NIXON. In your testimony yesterday you indicated that the only power that you or the board of the American Federation of Musicians exerted over the locals was over the power to strike. Now, as the testimony has proceededed today it appears that that power is somewhat expanded. It seems that you exert almost complete control over recordings throughout the country. Is that true?

Mr. PETRILLO. Well, I didn't have that in mind when you spoke to me about that yesterday, but we make wage scales for traveling bands. It is all national scales.

Mr. NIXON. I understand. In other words, you control the recordings?

Mr. PETRILLO. Hollywood recordings and traveling bands, traveling musical shows.

Mr. NIXON. Special permission for school-music broadcasts?

Mr. PETRILLO. No; that is locally, school broadcasts.

Mr. NIXON. Except some of those cases?

Mr. PETRILLO. Except on chain.

Mr. NIXON. You have exclusive power on FM radio?
Mr. PETRILLO. That is right.

Mr. NIXON. You have exclusive power over television?
Mr. PETRILLO. That is right.

Mr. NIXON. Locals cannot deal in any of those fields?

Mr. PETRILLO. Yes.

Mr. MCCANN. May I ask a question there? I think it was overlooked.

Mr. KEARNS. Yes.

Mr. BAGLEY. According to my recollection, Abraham Lincoln was born on February 12 down in a little cabin in Kentucky, and he was, I believe, 57 years of age when he was assassinated. It was 1809 he was born, and Franz Schubert, the great musician, was born the same year, and I think Robert E. Lee was born about that time, too. It was quite a time for celebrities early in the nineteenth century.

Mr. MCCANN. Mr. Bagley, you attended a meeting

Mr. BAGLEY. I have attended many.

Mr. MCCANN. On May 8, 1947. Who was present? Earl Carroll was one of them.

Mr. BAGLEY. You mean a meeting in the headquarters of the association, of local No. 47?

Mr. MCCANN. Yes.

Mr. BAGLEY. Yes; I was there.

Mr. MCCANN. Who was present?

Mr. BAGLEY. Well, there were present, besides myself, John te Groen, Lee MacQuarrie, Mr. J. K. Wallace, a man I think his name was Long, I didn't get that very plainly, and Mr. Earl Carroll was there.

Mr. MCCANN. The meeting was held in the union's office?

Mr. BAGLEY. It was held in Mr. Wallace's office on the fourth floor of the building at 1417 Georgia Street.

Mr. MCCANN. How long did the meeting last?

Mr. BAGLEY. I didn't keep any time on it, but I would not imagine it lasted over 30 minutes, and I think it was less than that.

Mr. MCCANN. You would not agree with Mr. Carroll that it lasted an hour?

Mr. BAGLEY. No; I would not. There wasn't anything that was talked about there that would have taken that long.

Mr. MCCANN. Were there many recriminations at this meeting? Mr. BAGLEY. That all depends on what you mean by recriminations. I don't follow you that way. If you will designate what you want to know I can tell you.

Mr. MCCANN. Did you tell Mr. Carroll that the musicians had given a 2 weeks' notice and that they no longer wanted to work for a man who went around the country shouting his head off against the musicians' union?

Mr. BAGLEY. I did not. I never said anything like that against Mr. Carroll or anybody else.

Mr. MCCANN. That statement you emphatically deny?

Mr. BAGLEY. I emphatically deny. It didn't interest me where Mr. Carroll went at all. He could go where he pleased.

Mr. MCCANN. Did Mr. Carroll say to you, if the men quit, where would he get another band?

Mr. BAGLEY. Not that I can remember. He didn't say anything of the kind to me.

Mr. MCCANN. You didn't say, "That is your lookout"?

Mr. BAGLEY. Well, I would have said it to him if he asked me that, because that would have been his lookout.

Mr. MCCANN. If he did ask you that, that is what you said to him? Mr. BAGLEY. That is what I would have said to him if he did ask, but he didn't ask.