Mr. KEARNS. Mr. Petrillo, at this time I am going to excuse you, but not dismiss you. And if I need you in the course of the next 2 weeks I will notify you through your counsel, as I may have to clear up a few things. Mr. PETRILLO. If it runs over 2 weeks, or 3 weeks, or 4 weeks, am I to believe that so far as I am concerned I am finished? Mr. KEARNS. That is correct, sir. Mr. PETRILLO. I would like to know that. I have arrangements. I want to go away. I want to go to England and so on and so forth. Mr. KEARNS. Let me know when your booking will be. Mr. PETRILLO. I will tell you what I will do with you; I will get in touch with you when you finally dismiss me. If you want me, give me about a week and I will get down here. Mr. KEARNS. Will you write the president of the Music Educators? Mr. PETRILLO. I want to give that to you. Mr. KEARNS. All right, sir. We will talk that over. Mr. PETRILLO. Now, if I am dismissed for the present, I want to take this opportunity of thanking you gentlemen for the fine treatment I received here. I was a little bit worried in the beginning that it might be one of those burlesque shows, but it didn't turn out that way. I think you gentlemen were very fair with us, and in turn I think I tried to be fair with you. I wouldn't hesitate in giving you the answers that you asked. I might have been confused at times on certain questions, but it didn't come from the heart, it came from the head. I assure you that it was very nice, and I am going to tell it to my convention, and I am going to tell it to the executive board, and Ï want you to know that I appreciate it, gentlemen. Mr. NIXON. One point before you get away, Mr. Petrillo. You indicated that the American Federation of Musicians, and particularly you, have the control of the last word on the making of recordings. I assume that wherever a member of the American Federation of Musicians appears on the program, or in public, that you want to see that no recordings are made unless you have given permission. I think we would like to know whether or not you gave permission for the recordings to be made of these hearings today. Mr. PETRILLO. I didn't know there were any recordings. Mr. NIXON. Are you going to call the Congress unfair, then? Mr. NIXON. He is the musician. Mr. PADWAY. I see Mr. Thompson is still sitting here. And I know that he has made a colossal error, but not intentionally. We ough to correct. I have a witness here that will correct it. Mr. MCCANN. I want you to have a seat. I am going to call him. If you have any witness that can change any statement that he has made, we will be glad to hear from that witness. I don't think it will take more than a few minutes. Mr. Thompson forgot about it, or I forgot about it. Mr. KEARNS. Mr. Thompson, will you take the stand? Mr. McCANN. Mr. Thompson, you heard the statement by Mr. Padway that you had committed a colossal error. I want you to explain that in your own language to him, and tell him just what you have to say about that. FURTHER TESTIMONY OF JAMES C. THOMPSON-Recalled Mr. THOMPSON. I was out of the city when this subpena reached me. I had my office prepare this information for me from the records. It was prepared by a man very close to Mr. Petrillo and worked for him for years, a man who didn't like to prepare it, but did give me the facts, gave them to me in writing. In the case of the Metropolitan Opera Co., who brought ninety-odd men to Chicago from New York, they would have been compelled to employ 18 men if they used any men in the pit. The eight men that we had as stand-bys were not permitted to play in the pit. Mr. MCCANN. So you reaffirm your statement? Mr. THOMPSON. That is what I have in writing from my office. Mr. MCCANN. May I proceed, and then you are free to put on anyone you want to on that, Mr. Padway? I failed to ask you about one question which I think, in view of the testimony of Mr. Petrillo, is very important. Did you have Henry V movie in your theater in Chicago? Mr. THOMPSON. In the Civic Theater. Mr. MCCANN. Did you have it there from August 5, 1946, to January 4, 1947? Mr. THOMPSON. I did. Mr. MCCANN. That was a movie, was it not? Mr. THOMPSON. It was. Mr. MCCANN. And did you have to maintain the eight orchestra members that you had in there for regular shows? Mr. THOMPSON. For 4 weeks; from August 31 we had six men, one leader and five musicians, which we paid $372.36 a week. And for the next 18 weeks we had eight musicians, one leader and seven musicians, which we paid $562.31 a week. We paid them one-half scale for each performance of the movie. There were 14 performances a week. So a man got his week's pay, full pay. Mr. MCCANN. He got his full pay for the entire period instead of half-pay, then? Mr. THOMPSON. That is right. Because he got one-half pay for each performance of the movie. Mr. MCCANN. So you paid out a total of $11,610.78 for musicians during that period of time for which no service was rendered? Mr. THOMPSON. That is right. Mr. MCCANN. And that was the full pay of those musicians had they been playing for some other type of show? Mr. THOMPSON. That is right. Mr. MCCANN. That is all. Mr. PADWAY. Mr. Thompson Mr. MCCANN. Mr. Chairman, are you going to permit crossexamination? Mr. KEARNS. Are you through? Mr. McCANN. I am through with Mr. Thompson. Mr. KEARNS. I think in this case I am going to rule that Mr. Padway can confirm his conviction about it. Mr. PADWAY. It will only be a couple of minutes. Mr. MCCANN. All right. Mr. PADWAY. Mr. Thompson, you say this was prepared for you by someone in your office? Mr. THOMPSON. That is right. From the books. Mr. PADWAY. Do you personally have knowledge of the facts? 1 am not talking about the figures. The fact that if a Metropolitan musician became ill it would require 18 to replace him. Mr. THOMPSON. That is what I am told. Mr. PADWAY. That is what you are told. Now, let me see if I can't bring to your mind what the true situation is respecting that. Were you not told that if the Metropolitan brought its own musicians, let's say, from New York, or elsewhere, that there would have to be employed 18 musicians in addition? That would be 68. If they brought 80, that would be 98. Wouldn't that be the fact? Mr. THOMPSON. No. We employed eight men and paid eight men. Mr. PADWAY. Is it not a fact, if a man got sick only one man would have to replace him? Mr. THOMPSON. I am told that we would have to employ 18 men if we used any in the pit. Mr. PADWAY. Who told you that? Mr. THOMPSON. That is what either Benkert or Bauman told Carlin. Mr. PADWAY. It was never told to you personally? Mr. THOMPSON. It was told to me through my organization. Mr. PADWAY. It is possible that your organization may have misinformed you? Mr. THOMPSON. And my organization put it in writing for me. Mr. PADWAY. They may have misinformed you because I am here to say now, for the American Federation of Musicians of Chicago, they have no such rule, they never intended to make such a rule, and will never make such a rule. And if a man got sick he would have to be replaced by one man. And that was confirmed by Mr. Katz, the attorney, and a member of the board, who knows the rules, and was over to the telephone after you had testified, because it was astounding and astonishing and amazing. It just didn't happen. Now, what really happened is this: There is a confusion between the 18 men required. How would you explain that, Dave? This is Mr. Dave Katz, both attorney and also member of the board of Chicago Federation of Musicians. Mr. KEARNS. If he wants to testify he will have to take the stand. Mr. Katz, will you stand and take the oath? TESTIMONY OF DAVID KATZ, ATTORNEY AND MEMBER OF THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS, LOCAL 10, CHICAGO FEDERATION OF MUSICIANS, CHICAGO, ILL. (David Katz was duly sworn.) Mr. KEARNS. State your name. Mr. KATZ. My name is David Katz. I live in Chicago, Ill. And I am a member of the board of directors of local 10, Chicago, Ill., and have been for 20 years. In the case of the Metropolitan Opera House orchestra, the union rule in Chicago is this: if the orchestra comes in intact, there are no local men employed. If the Metropolitan orchestra should come in and ask to augment, then, in augmenting they have to use 18 men. But to say that if a man in the Metropolitan orchestra got sick and had to be replaced, why I think it is absolutely ridiculous to say that we would insist on 18 men. We never had such a situation, and certainly as reasonable men we would let the Metropolitan orchestra replace their instrumentalist either with a New York musician, or a Chicago musician, or any city musician that they wanted to. And I think that Mr. Thompson is not intentionally making an error there. I think he just misconceives the rule. Mr. McCANN. Mr. Katz, in regard to the Chicago contract which has been discussed, and which you heard Mr. Petrillo testify to, and to the effect that when a movie came into a regular house that the musicians then would only be paid half, during the contract period, what they had drawn before. You heard that testimony about Mr. Petrillo? Mr. KATZ. Yes. Mr. MCCANN. You heard the testimony now by Mr. Thompson that he had to pay full salaries, a total of better than $11,000 for that same period. Will you please explain that under your contract? Mr. KATZ. I am not disputing Mr. Thompson's testimony, but I know what our rules are. Our rules call for half salary. In this particular case the number of performances must have gone up, and therefore, half salary on 14 performances would be more than half salary on 9 performances. I don't remember. I can't remember what really happened in the Shakespeare show. But I think that is what happened. The number of performances went up. Mr. MCCANN. What I wanted to get at, does the contract call for half of the salary when they are idle and not working, or does the contract call for half of what they would have earned had they played all of the performances? Mr. KATZ. I believe that the contract calls for what they would have earned if they had played half of all the performances. Now, of course the scale changes. The scale-the legitimate theater scale is one thing, the moving picture theater scale is another. And they may have received one-half of what the moving-picture theater scale was. Mr. MCCANN. Thank you very much. Mr. KEARNS. Mr. Katz, could it have been a case of misunderstanding? I realize the difference of scale there in a movie house and the legitimate stage. Could it have been such a thing that someone from the office of the union quoted the wrong figure to Mr. Thompson or could it be possible Mr. KATZ. Mr. Chairman, I remember the incident. The leader came in to see the board, and the leader came in with a proposition from the management and asked us to accept that proposition, and we did. Mr. KEARNS. That is all, Mr. Katz. Mr. Thompson, will you take the stand again? TESTIMONY OF JAMES C. THOMPSON-Recalled Mr. KEARNS. I just want to clear for the record: Do you think there might have been a possibility that the quoting of the figure for this one man who might have been ill might have been mistaken over the telephone during the conversation? the show and the dance got $100. So we raised the $80 men up to $100, and the other men up to $120. The men who played the dance and the show, raised them to $120, and we raised the men that just played the show music, the three violinists in question, up to $100 from $80. Mr. MCCANN. I don't want you to let the record, through inadvertence, be long, sir. I want to show you this letter, which comes from the Musicians Mutual Protective Association on February 4, 1947. It is addressed to: EARL CARROLL THEATER RESTAURANT, 6230 Sunset Boulevard, Los Angeles, Calif. (Attention: Mr. Earl Carroll.) DEAR SIR: We are establishing a standard of scales for theater and theater restaurants in our jurisdiction. Effective March 4, 1947, the following conditions and wage scales will apply to the Earl Carroll Theater Restaurant: A minimum of 16 men, including leader and contractor, to apply at all times. Mr. DICKINSON. That is right. Mr. MCCANN. Now, that meant for the dance and the show and everything else, didn't it? Mr. DICKINSON. Isn't there a rider there that explains the three men that play shows, what they are to get? Mr. MCCANN. There is no rider. It states further Scales will be as follows: Five hours per night, six nights per week, $120 side men. Five hours per night, six nights per week, $180 leader and contractor. Now, do you want to change your testimony? Mr. DICKINSON. No; I don't. That is the way I understood it. Mr. DICKINSON. No; that is the way I understood it. Mr. MCCANN. You are a member of the board of trustees? Mr. DICKINSON. That is right. Mr. MCCANN. It was not your thought to make Mr. Earl Carroll employ a man to do something which he didn't want that man to do? Mr. DICKINSON. That wasn't the thought at all. Mr. MCCANN. You didn't know that your organization required him, under the letter, to do that? Mr. DICKINSON. I never saw that letter before. Mr. MCCANN. So you didn't have anything to do with the framing of this letter, did you? Mr. DICKINSON. I didn't write it. Mr. MCCANN. Now, calling your attention to these signatures, and I will ask you if you recognize that as the letter from your organization? Mr. DICKINSON. That is right. Mr. MCCANN. That is Mr. Wallace's signature, a stamp, and Mr. MacQuarrie signed it? Mr. DICKINSON. That is their signature, so far as I know. Mr. DICKINSON. Am I through? Mr. MCCANN. Mr. Chairman, I think that is all the questions I want to ask him at this time. Mr. KEARNS. Mr. Dickinson, is it the custom of the management of the union here that contracts and data put on paper, such as shown |