because of the Taft-Hartley bill, which has become a law and which we intend to live under.

Mr. MCCANN. When did you do that?

Mr. PAUL. When did we do what?

Mr. MCCANN. When did you make that change to do away with the house minimums?

Mr. PAUL. In the past few weeks. I can't name the exact date. Mr. MCCANN. It has been stated to me that you have never required, as I understood the testimony of Mr. Bagley yesterday, that you haven't required stand-by orchestras in this locality. Is that correct?

Mr. PAUL. Mr. Bagley is not a member of our board. He is our counsel. He has repeatedly advised us for many, many years against the requirement of the employment of stand-by orchestras.

When it was legal, under the laws of the United States and of this State for us to require the payment of a stand-by orchestra, or usually a stand-by musician, and these--I want to make it perfectly clear that in 99 cases out of 100 these stand-bys are paid at the request of an employer. In other words, an employer wants, for instance, to employ a nonmember on a radio station. He will telephone the union or communicate with the union and suggest that he be permitted to use this nonmember and to pay one of our members.

Mr. MCCANN. That is because they had closed-shop agreements? Mr. PAUL. We have had closed-shop agreements in the past. When this practice was legal, we have in the past accepted these stand-by payments. Since it has become illegal, under the laws of our country, we have ceased that practice.

Mr. MCCANN. Well, I am glad to hear that, Mr. Paul. I was trying to get the picture.

Mr. PAUL. I want to make it perfectly clear that

Mr. MCCANN. You did do it when it was legal to do it?

Mr. PAUL. We live within the laws of the land at all times. Mr. MCCANN. It is a fact that some of the nearby towns, though, have had perhaps even more stringent rules with respect to requiring stand-by orchestras than Los Angeles; isn't that true?

Mr. PAUL. I don't know about that. Frankly, I am concerned only with the affairs of local 47 and what happens in our jurisdiction.

Mr. MCCANN. When we were here before, it seems to me, someone told us that a soloist with her own accompanist would be required to pay for an orchestra if she sang in San Francisco, while not required to do that in your city, so that the local rules do-what I am trying to get at is each local may establish the rules it desires within the law now?

Mr. PAUL. Each local in the American Federation of Musicians has complete local autonomy to set wage scales, working conditions, and rules for their members. And many of them have widely different rules. I don't pretend or wouldn't expect to try to explain any of those rules. I don't even know what they are.

Mr. MCCANN. It appears to me from an examination of your records that a very large portion of the time of your board of directors is devoted to the matter of complaints against your own members by other members; is that not true?

Mr. PAUL. That is correct.

Mr. MCCANN. And that the disciplining of the members is a very substantial part of the load of your board? I am not asking any test questions.

Mr. PAUL. No, no.

Mr. MCCANN. I am really not trying to catch you. I am asking a question I think I can substantiate very quickly from the record. Mr. PAUL. I understand that. I wouldn't say a substantial part of the board's time was taken with that. Spasmodically we may have a meeting in which three or four cases of that kind come before the board, and then it may be two or three meetings in which we have nothing of that nature before the board.

I want to point out to you that our constitution and bylaws provides for a trial board, which is appointed by the board of directors, and to that trial board we delegate the task of hearing the complaint of one member against another member. When that trial board's decision is made

Mr. MCCANN. Then you pass upon it?

Mr. PAUL. The member- we don't pass on it unless one of the members wants to appeal from that decision, and then he has the right of appeal to the board of which I am a member. If he wants to appeal from our decision, he can appeal to our general meeting, which is held monthly.

If he wants to appeal from the decision of the general meeting, he may appeal to the international executive board. If he wants to appeal from the decision of the international executive board, he may appeal to the convention, which is held yearly.

Mr. MCCANN. Mr. Petrillo has explained some of that to the committee, so we won't spend any more time on that, Mr. Paul.

Mr. Chairman, just to give some illustration of the things I found in the minute book, I thought I would read a few little excerpts here and question about them as I go along.

Mr. KEARNS. All right.

Mr. MCCANN. In the minutes of January 3, 1947, of the board of directors of local 47, I note that, on motion, request of Mr. Breen, of the Gilbert and Sullivan Company, opening the Mikado on January 9, for a reduction in size of house orchestra and permission to continue use of musican traveling with the show as rehearsal pianist was referred to assistant MacQuarrie with instructions.

Do you recall that instance?

Mr. PAUL. I recall it faintly. I don't recall

Mr. MCCANN. Do you recall what the instructions were which the board gave to Mr. MacQuarrie?

Mr. PAUL. I don't recall those instructions.

Mr. MCCANN. You were present at that meeting, weren't you, Mr. Paul?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; I believe I have missed only two meetings in the seven-odd years I have been a director.

Mr. MCCANN. I just wanted the record to include some of these things, Mr. Chairman, to indicate the character of the matters coming before the committee.

Mr. PAUL. Mr. Chairman and Mr. McCann, could I be permitted a slight explanation of that instruction delegation there?

Mr. MCCANN. Yes; I would be delighted to have you explain it.

Mr. PAUL. Well, we are a very large organization. We have very many members. The officers of our organization are elected, and many times our political campaigns are hard-fought campaigns.

Occasionally we give permission to an employer to use, for example, as in this case-I am not saying this is true, because I have no recollection of it—we give permission for a rehearsal pianist of that nature to work, and some of our members might make objection to that and cause us a great deal of trouble. So we simply say to our business agent, "We instruct you to do so-and-so," and we don't put it in the minutes because the minutes are printed on our journal and then our members will say, "Why don't you get tough? Why don't you tell them to hire 25 men instead of 2 men?"

Mr. MCCANN. I see. So that you are rather careful what you put in these minutes?

Mr. PAUL. In those cases; yes.

You must understand that these minimum quotas of men that we have set in the past are—we have the membership whole-heartedly behind us. As a matter of fact, they

Mr. PAUL. They pressure us to create employment for them. Mr. MCCANN. You stated a minute ago you are not requiring standby musicians in this area. Are you positive about that. sir?

Mr. PAUL. I believe that I can safely state we are not requiring employment of any stand-by musicians, if you mean by stand-by musicians employment of a musician whose services are being displaced by a nonmember or by a member who is from another locality.

Mr. MCCANN. I have just had a note passed to me to the effect one theater operator in this town is paying for eight stand-by musicians, and the money is being impounded awaiting a decision, I imagine, of the courts on the Taft-Hartley bill. Do you know whether this is true?

Mr. GREEN. I don't-it may be. I believe that the house in question is the Million Dollar Theater.

Mr. MCCANN. That doesn't seem to sustain the position that you stated.

Mr. GREEN. Let me finish. Mr. Sherrill Corwin, the owner or the manager of that theater, wrote our board of directors a letter a few weeks ago in which he said that under the Taft-Hartley bill that he could not, in his opinion, pay that stand-by any longer.

We agreed to that, but I believe that Mr. Corwin said that he was going to impound this money himself. I believe I am correct in stating that we are not impounding it.

If Mr. Corwin likes to put that money aside in a separate fund of his own, with the idea that when this law becomes clarified he may then want to pay these musicians-understand, this payment by Mr. Corwin was not made to the union. It was made to the individual musicians who were formerly in his employ and who were displaced by out-of-town bands.

I am almost sure I am stating the facts in this case, that Mr. Corwin is impounding that money of his own volition and certainly not at our request, to my knowledge.

Mr. MCCANN. Well, would you make further inquiry on that to verify your statement?

Mr. PAUL. I will inquire further about it. To the best of my knowledge, I am stating facts.

Mr. MCCANN. I want to ask you if you recall the meeting in January 1947, where you were discussing, as a board, the Earl Carroll contract. Do you recall that?

Mr. PAUL. I recall discussing the Earl Carroll wage scales. I have felt all day yesterday, in the line of questioning, that perhaps the committee and yourself has a slightly wrong picture of our operation with regard to night clubs.

You see, it is common practice with large labor unions—and we do ourselves with large employers-enter into industry-wide agreements with those employers. For instance, we have an industry-wide agreement with the chain radio stations-with the networks. We have an industry-wide agreement with the motion-picture industry. But we do not enter into contracts unless the employer requests it for establishments of the nature of Mr. Carroll's.

In other words, when you asked me if I was present at the meeting where we discussed Mr. Carroll's contract, I must answer I was present at the meeting where we discussed raising Mr. Carroll's wage scale, but not presenting him with a contract.

Mr. MCCANN. That distinction I understand is correct. Thank you for making it.

I want to know what was said and done at the meeting in January with respect to the wage scale of Earl Carroll's Theater Restaurant.

Mr. PAUL. To the best of my recollection, this is what took place: The cost of living had gone up, according to reliable figures, more than 25 percent in the past year. Mr. Carroll had raised his prices within that period of time-the prices of food, drinks, and admission. We felt that our people were entitled to a 20-percent raise in the place, to cover the much greater than that increase in the cost of living. We investigated and we felt that Mr. Carroll was doing a good business and could well afford to pay this increase.

Mr. MCCANN. Who conducted the investigation for you?

Mr. PAUL. Various of our business agents; Mr. MacQuarrie has investigated, I personally investigated by calling the members of the orchestra whom I knew, and asking them, in their opinion, how business was in Mr. Carroll's establishment.

Mr. MCCANN. Wasn't it a fact-and I am not trying to cross-examine you-I am looking for information; wasn't it a fact that the business in his theater operation had fallen off very materially during the past year r?

Mr. PAUL. I understand that Mr. Carroll's business in the past few weeks, I should say, or the last 3 months, has fallen off, but at the time that this discussion took place

Mr. MCCANN. That was in January, of course?

Mr. PAUL. In January, it was our information, to the best of our knowledge, that Mr. Carroll was still doing a very good business. Of course, we knew that Mr. Carroll was not doing the land-office business that all establishments of that kind did during the war, but we felt that he was doing a very good business in what passed for normal times. Mr. MCCANN. Now I will read from your minutes of the date January 31, 1947, and I will ask you if this is correct:

After discussion, the matter of scale of Earl Carroll's Theater Restaurant was referred to Assistant MacQuarrie.

Now, tell us just what it meant when it was referred to him. Was he given the power to

Mr. PAUL. He was given the power to notify Mr. Carroll that we wanted a raise in scale-that is, to the best of my recollection. That is the policy that we pursue.

Mr. MCCANN. I thought that you might be able to explain the meaning of the "after discussion" here so as to indicate

Mr. PAUL. Oh, I see.

Mr. MCCANN. So as to indicate what discussion there was, because the minutes do not show it.

Mr. PAUL. Oh, I see. Well, it is difficult to recollect the exact words of any one member of the board, but I must say that that discussion meant a discussion pro and con, as we had many times before-the advisability of raising the scale of Mr. Carroll's place, Mr. Carroll's ability to pay that raise in scale, and the feasibility of getting a raise for our people at the time.

I am sure of that, although I can't recall positively, I am sure that that sort of discussion must have taken place, because that sort of discussion always does take place where we are going to ask any employer for a raise in scale.

Mr. MCCANN. Now I am going to call your attention to another minute here from the same date.

Contract as presented by I. S. Van Tonkins between himself and Marty Landeau covering engagement for Teen-Agers Orchestra at Riverside Rancho on March 13, 1947, was not approved.

Now, I am interested in knowing whether or not your union has the power to refuse to an orchestra or to an individual musician the right to accept employment for anyone at any time?

Mr. PAUL. We do not have that right except in cases where the contract or the employment is not according to our scales and working conditions.

Mr. MCCANN. There is no explanation here on that. Do you recall personally what the facts were which made you refuse to approve the contract that was presented by I. S. Van Tonkins between himself and Marty Landeau covering engagement of the Teen-Agers Orchestra at Riverside Rancho on March 13, 1947. Can you tell me what reason was there for refusing approval?

Mr. PAUL. I don't believe that I can remember the reason for that particular disapproval. It may have been because the amount of money in the contract did not cover the scale for the engagementit may have been that.

Mr. MCCANN. I notice a number of places where you have approved applications and a number of places where you have disapproved applications. I am wondering if the approval or disapproval vests the power in you, assuming that the employer is not cutting the wage scale at all-assuming that a member of your union solicits the employment; is he violating a rule when he solicits that position in this area?

Mr. PAUL. He is violating a rule when he solicits an engagement where another member is employed, where that member does not have a 2-week notice.

Mr. McCANN. All right, let us assume that there is no member employed. I want to get at how broad your powers are over your mem