TESTIMONY OF LEE SOBLE-Recalled

Mr. KEARNS. Did you ever advise our counsel or the record that had never had a hearing?

Mr. SOBLE. I did so.

you

Mr. KEARNS. You just heard the testimony here that a hearing was granted to you, and divulged here in this record

Mr. SOBLE. I certainly

Mr. KEARNS. Just a minute-by the vice president of local 47 of the American Federation here.

Mr. SOBLE. I had that after they took my license away, after they received the letters to the effect that I was out of business. I pleaded with them and appealed to them to tell me what the trouble was, and one day out of the goodness of their hearts they said, "Well, we will let you come down to the board.” So they made an appointment one Tuesday some time later, after they had taken my license away several weeks ago, and they let me go down to the board. They kept me outside for about an hour cooling off, and then finally someone came out and let me come in, and as I walked in the door Mr. Wallace said, "What are you doing here? You have no right to be here. We have taken your license away. What are you doing here?" Well, I said, "You told me to come here." Well, he said, "You have no standing here now. Your license has been revoked. I don't know what you are doing here." I said, "Very well. They told me I could come down here to find out what the trouble was. You asked me to come down."

They told me to go outside and wait. I waited for another half hour and finally somebody came out and told me that all the performers had been notified not to work for me and that no action would be taken and that he didn't care to discuss the case with me.

If that is what they call a hearing, then I guess I had a hearing. Mr. HARTLEY. What about the conferences you had with Mr. te Groen?

Mr. SOBLE. I believe the conferences that he is referring to are conferences that have happened in the last few days, since I served them with a registered letter about 10 days ago demanding that they restore my license, and also demanding that they remove my name from a list which they had been publishing for 27 months stating that no one could perform for or with me or be seen with me; talking to me, or rent me an office or do anything for me. I demanded

Mr. HARTLEY. You say that this local has actually sent out--
Mr. SOBLE. For 27 months.

Mr. HARTLEY. Letters to people that they should not rent you an office or do any of the things that you have just enumerated?

Mr. SOBLE. Well, they have not sent out a letter, but they have published a monthly magazine for 27 months that carried my name in a list, "Don't perform with or for," and some legal phraseology to the effect that members may be fined, suspended, or expelled if they are seen talking to me. Agents have been called on, and they have been asked if they are doing business with me. When I tried to rent an office, the man refused me the office for fear that he might have his license taken away. I went down to see Mr. te Groen, last Sunday that is, with another agent. I said, "Come on and go with me." The man said, "I will go with you, but I won't go to the house." He did

The point I want you to think about, in this local and with other locals, is I don't think you can fight the technological developments in the country in order to protect employment of a certain number of your union.

Mr. PAUL. Mr. Kearns, I don't want to appear to enter into a discussion or any argument with you. If you would permit me to make a statement of my views on that subject, if you are interested, I will be glad to.

Mr. KEARNS. I certainly am.

Mr. PAUL. I will be glad to do that. You see, this is a story that has been told many, many times. We are the only people that make the technological device that does displace our members. We are the only craft that I know of that is in competition with ourselves.

I walk into restaurant after restaurant when I go out to dinner at night-large restaurants, beautiful restaurants, beautifully appointed, high-priced restaurants. Now, I know that music is not part of the restaurant's business, except by custom. From time immemoriallet's not go back that far. From the time I can remember, when I was a little bit of a kid and my folks took me into restaurants, there was usually a string orchestra or string ensemble of some kind playing beautiful music.

When I walked into a similar restaurant now I hear beautiful music-Muzack, World Transcription Co. In many of those places our members have never been employed.

to us.

The point we make, and that I want to stress, is that the product we make makes the opportunity of employment in such cases impossible We are not so much concerned with actual places where we can say, "Here they put in a juke box and threw our men out of work," because that has happened. I can show you dozens of instances in this very town where that has happened. We are concerned with the trend, where we make a product that takes the opportunity for our people to be employed if possible.

When you say to me that we shouldn't worry about that technological aspect of displacement, if you will pardon-I don't mean to presume, but I believe that you are a fair-minded man and that if you would examine this a little bit in the light I am pointing out to you, that you might see some concern for our worry, and I believe that as a board member of local 47 and a minor official of the union that I would be derelict in my duty if I didn't concern myself about such technological unemployment. It is the destruction of opportunity for employment, let us say.

Mr. KEARNS. Well, here you have a new industry springing up, like FM broadcasting, where music is not permitted to go over the airways. Mr. PAUL. If I could correct you, we have a directive from Mr. Petrillo in the last few days that our members are permitted to play over AM and FM at the same time; that has been corrected.

Mr. KEARNS. A lot of things are happening here in the last few days, it seems.

Mr. PAUL. Mr. Kearns, I don't know why Mr. Petrillo did that. That was his baby and I am not-but I am merely pointing out the fact.

Mr. KEARNS. I bring it up, not so much for the decision but the fact I discussed it with Mr. Petrillo, as a matter of fact, last Thursday. We have all these stations that are going to be inaugurated

throughout the country and they will furnish a lot of employment. They would like to hire staff orchestras in those stations.

Mr. PAUL. They would?

Mr. KEARNS. Surely; as soon as they can build up their advertising, no doubt they will furnish a lot of employment.

Mr. PAUL. I certainly hope you are right, Mr. Kearns.

Mr. KEARNS. I mean, that is what I have been told by the FM Association.

Mr. PAUL. I certainly hope so, because we are very anxious to get employment.

Mr. KEARNS. In other words, I don't think the attitude that technological development is a good thing for the musicians to harp about, of throwing them out of work. I know you are an intelligent man, and I feel that there should be a different approach to it. I realize that some of them have been very difficult for you to cope with. Mr. PAUL. They have, indeed.

Mr. KEARNS. Now, this welfare fund-I understand something over $2,000,000 has been collected from these recordings, and there is some program of distribution for park concerts, and so forth.

I imagine the city of Los Angeles and your local here has a quota that you are going to receive from that; is that correct?

Mr. PAUL. This is the record and transcription fund you are talking about?

Mr. KEARNS. That is right.

Mr. PAUL. Our quota for that amounted, roughly, to $65,000. Now, that is not an accurate figure, but it is somewhere in the neighborhood of that, within a few thousand dollars.

Mr. KEARNS. Has that been allocated to you?

Mr. PAUL. That has been allocated to us and we use that-you see, each local is permitted to use that money to create employment for our unemployed members in any manner we see fit within certain limits. There was a list of things sent to us that the convention permitted us to use this money for. Among them were concerts for wounded soldiers.

In this locality we have thousands of wounded veterans. We have many large naval and military hospitals, and we use that fund exclusively for that purpose.

Mr. KEARNS. When did this money first become available to you at this local union?

Mr. PAUL. I believe in June, but I am not sure.

Mr. KEARNS. Of this year?

Mr. PAUL. June of this year.

Mr. KEARNS. You had never had any before June, had you?

Mr. PAUL. Not of this money; no.

Mr. KEARNS. What have you done now since you have received this money? You say you have spent it for these concerts and all. How much have you spent to give unemployed musicians employment? Mr. PAUL. We have spent over $40,000.

Mr. KEARNS. You have the figures to show that?

Mr. PAUL. I don't have the figures.

Mr. KEARNS. Would your treasurer have that?
Mr. PAUL. Mr. te Groen would have it.

Mr. KEARNS. Would Mr. Meyer, the treasurer?

Mr. PAUL. Mr. te Groen would be more apt to have that, because he handles-either one, you can talk to either of them.

Mr. KEARNS. Yes; I am very interested to see how you used that and in what places you have used it.

Mr. PAUL. The places we have used it are just those places-the veterans' hospitals. I would like to point out to you that there is no provision, the convention-the federation wouldn't permit us to use any of this money for administrative expense, and the administrative expense is quite high, so our local has been put to quite a lot of expense in distributing this.

Mr. KEARNS. Any of the unused money is returned to the national organization?

Mr. PAUL. I believe-Mr. te Groen can correct me-but I believe it has to be spent by December 31, 1947.

Mr. KEARNS. When was this money first collected from the record companies?

Mr. PAUL. I don't know the date of the first record contract. I really don't; I don't recall.

Mr. KEARNS. Would you know whether it was 1944 or 1945?
Mr. PAUL. No; I don't. I honestly can't recall. It is a federation

matter.

Mr. MCCANN. Mr. Chairman, to refresh your recollection, Mr. Petrillo testified before us in Washington that up to December 31, 1946, he had collected $2,600,000 from the record companies, and that he expected the revenues for this year to be $2,000,000. I think that is accurate. It started, as I remember it, in 1944.

Mr. KEARNS. That is right.

Mr. MCCANN. There was a strike on with Victor and Columbia, and they did not contribute to the larger companies for, I think, about 27 months. They held out before they came into the contract.

Mr. KEARNS. You know, as a member of the board here, why this money was not made available prior to June of this year?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; it had to wait for a convention to allot the money and to decide the manner under which it would be disbursed. Mr. KEARNS. What was the date of your convention?

Mr. PAUL. The convention was in June.

Mr. KEARNS. I have letters in my file where the money was allocated over 30 days prior to that.

Mr. PAUL. No; perhaps I didn't make myself clear. It wasn't this convention that took this action. You see, the point I am trying to make is that the convention set up the plan for disbursement of these funds. I believe it was at the former convention. My recollection may be completely wrong about this, but I believe it was a former convention that appointed a committee to set up a plan, and if that plan were acceptable to the international executive board, then they would proceed under it. I am very hazy on this. I don't know too much about it. I am under oath and I must qualify all my state

ments.

Mr. KEARNS. I will talk to the vice president about the matter. Have you ever been a member of any other board-community business board-other than the American Federation of Musicians?

Mr. PAUL. You mean like a chamber of commerce or something of that nature?

Mr. KEARNS. Yes.

Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I never have.

Mr. KEARNS. I was very much impressed with counsel's remark that the minutes and procedures of the meetings were in good order. The thing that rather puzzles me, as I sit here and listen to everyone of your local board members that come up here and speak, you are able to talk in a general way about a lot of things, but when certain things are asked the board members about this or about that or the other thing, there is a great state of confusion--that they can't recall this or they can't recall that. I can't understand, if these board meetings are held and quorums are present, why there wouldn't be some evidence or record of this or that particular discussion. Could you enlighten me as to that?

Mr. PAUL. I believe I can, Mr. Kearns. We hold a weekly meeting and it lasts usually from 9:30 in the morning until 4, sometimes until 5 in the afternoon.

Many, many times things are discussed during each of those meetings. I believe that I have an unusually good memory. I don'tmy memory isn't on a par, I don't think, with Mr. Bagley's. But I do have a reasonably good memory.

When you go back 3 or 4 or 5 months and read a minute to me and ask me how that occurred, sometimes I am a little bit hazy on it. In my testimony here this morning, I don't believe I have evaded anything by saying, "I can't remember." Most of these cases I know pretty well about; and if I don't know about the specific case, it is of a type that I have handled in conjunction with the other members of the board many, many times. I know from the type of thing, the action and the discussion, what must have taken place.

Mr. KEARNS. Yes; I think you have given very enlightening testimony here. You sitting back there listening to some of these other board members who couldn't remember this or couldn't remember the other thing, it seems to me-I am on a number of boards—if someone asked me if I could recall this or the other thing, I could maybe not get right down to the most minute detail of the thing, but I certainly could remember things of importance that happened.

Mr. PAUL. Mr. Kearns, the board is composed of many individuals and we all don't have the same type of memory. I don't believe a single member of this board has consciously tried to evade anything. I believe they honestly couldn't remember.

Also, one or two of the members that have testified have a particular branch of the music business they are interested in because they have worked all their lives in that particular branch, and while they should be interested in the other ones, other fields, because they are elected by the membership, it is only human nature that it might seem a little boring to them.

For instance, when we are talking about what goes on in some small cafe on the outskirts of town, they may not listen-they may doodle with a pencil and paper. They may be thinking about a golf game or fishing trip they intend to take the next day.

It is only human. It happens I have a very live interest in all phases of the music business, because I have worked in all phases of the music business, plus the fact I have a very live interest in trying to help my fellow members and trying to create good working conditions and wages for them.