About 3 weeks ago, at the intercession of a Mr. Dave Klein, who was a former contractor for Mr. Carroll, and at the behest of the boys in the orchestra themselves, who felt they did not want to see three of their fellow men thrown out of work, our Mr. te Groen negotiated with Mr. Carroll a verbal agreement, under which we reduced the scale to the original $100 scale for the combination man and $80 scale for the men who played the show only.

This verbal agreement, it was Mr. te Groen's understanding, was contingent upon the continued employment of the full complement of 15 men.

Mr. te Groen told Mr. Carroll at the time that we had ceased to impose a quota on him and that if he wanted to pay our regular rate of $120 a week he could employ either one man or as many men as he wanted, but if he desired to keep a larger orchestra and to pay a lesser scale, that we would appreciate it if he would keep the full complement of men employed.

Mr. te Groen was of the opinion Mr. Carroll acceded to this request. On Thursday of last week we started trying to get an appointment with Mr. Carroll, to negotiate further with Mr. Carroll. We were unable to do so, to reach him with repeated phone calls, telegrams. But finally at 4 o'clock on Sunday afternoon he called Mr. te Groen and consented to a meeting in which we would attempt to negotiate a new contract with Mr. Carroll.

We met at a quarter of 7 in the Roosevelt Hotel and, present were myself, John te Groen, Lee Bagley, Mr. Carroll, Harry Long, and Mr. Carroll's attorney, Mr. Wolf, I think.

In a protracted negotiation that lasted 21⁄2 hours, we arrived at a basis for a contract with Mr. Carroll. The contract, as tentatively set up, and notes were taken on it, called for a scale of $100 a week and $80 per week for the part-time employees. It embodied a no-strike pledge, a promise from us we would cross all picket lines, and that we would not engage in any work stoppage of any kind during the life of that contract.

This provision was a substitute for the arbitration proposal that Mr. Carroll had made. He indicated his willingness to substitute this no-strike clause for the arbitration method. It also carried a clause that at the end of each year we would negotiate a new agreement, as regarding wages, hours, and working conditions. But we agreed that we absolutely would not ask him at any of these annual negotiations for any quota of men more than he wanted to employ.

At the beginning of the negotiations last Sunday night, Mr. Carroll had indicated to us that he wanted a 5-year contract. Now, our federation very wisely, several years ago, passed a law that no individual or no local could sign a contract for longer than 1 year, except by consent of the international executive board, and that we would be permitted to sign contracts up to 3 years with consent of the international executive board.

The reason for that, obviously, is that labor contracts involve payment of wages to people, and that economic conditions fluctuate. The cost of living may go up. A man tied on a 5-year contract, we will say, at $100 a week, at the end of a wild inflationary period might find himself without enough money to eat on.

Mr. Carroll said, "Well, if you can't sign for 5 years, sign for 3 years. Make it a 3-year contract."

We agreed to a 3-year contract-a 3-year agreement, subject, of course, to approval by the international executive board. Apparently, we did not make that clear to Mr. Carroll. We thought we had. We repeated it many times. Mr. Bagley, who is the vice president of the federation, told him two or three times. We all told him that it had to be approved by the international executive board.

Mr. Carroll kept saying, from time to time, "You can do it if you want to." It just happens that Mr. Carroll is wrong about that. We have certain laws in our organization that we have to live up to.

Now, at the end of this negotiation Mr. Carroll said, "Well, let's go up to my office now and get this typed up and signed."

Mr. te Groen said, "Mr. Carroll, we can't sign this thing now. It would have no validity because we are not permitted to sign this until it is ratified by the American Federation of Musicians' international executive board."

He said, "Get Jimmy Petrillo on the phone. He can tell you you can do it."

That was not possible. Mr. Petrillo does not have the powers that are attributed to him. This contract must be approved by the international executive board. We told Mr. Carroll that one of the members lives in Portland, one lives in Toronto, Canada, one lives in Dallas, Tex. It is necessary to communicate with those people by telegram or by air mail letter and submit the proposal to them. It would be a matter of a few days only.

We are very, very anxious to settle the labor dispute with Mr. Carroll. We have been anxious to settle this from the very beginning of the dispute.

When Mr. Carroll finally became convinced we would not sign the contract until we lived up to the laws of our own organization, Mr. Carroll turned and walked out of the door, thus ending the negotiation. As he reached the door I asked Mr. Carroll, "Do I understand that do not want us to submit this tentative contract to the international executive board?"

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His answer was flatly, "No; don't submit it."

Now, I submit to this committee that local 47 has acted in good faith in our negotiations with Mr. Carroll from the very beginning of our negotiations. This has been a pure and simple labor dispute over wages to be paid our members by Mr. Carroll.

We have receded from the position of asking for any minimum number of men; we have reduced the scale to $100, which he has paid for the last year-we did reduce the scale and offered such to Mr. Carroll in the contract in our negotiations Sunday night.

We have never at any time taken any action of a retaliatory nature toward Mr. Carroll. Mr. Carroll told me many times-he_just told me in the hall-he feared us. I tried to allay that fear. I tried to show him when we had contracted with any employer that our record over a period of years shows that we have never broken a contract. We have lived up to the letter and spirit of every contract we have ever entered into.

We tried to reach a contract agreement with Mr. Carroll on last Sunday night. Mr. Carroll walked out of the negotiation, after we had apparently reached a meeting of the minds. The only thing in question was that he was not willing to wait the 4 or 5 days, at most,

it would be necessary for us to get this permission from our international executive board.

I don't know why Mr. Carroll walked out of the thing. I haven't the faintest idea. It is my belief, on the evidence of his actions at that time and let me say our meeting was most amicable; we chatted back and forth; we gave and took-it is my belief local 47 did most of the giving.

I can only believe from Mr. Carroll's actions that he did not want. to settle that dispute for some reason of his own that I can only conjecture about. I don't want to do that under oath.

I believe that is all I want to say about the thing.

Mr. KEARNS. Do you have any questions, Mr. Hartley?

Mr. HARTLEY. After listening to your recital of the facts, this thought occurred to me: This committee was not sent out here to act as a mediation service or to act as a conciliation service. But I can't, for the life of me, understand why all of you, who are certainly men and mature, have to act like children.

I am going to suggest that perhaps under the atmosphere that we have seen here this last day, at least, that there might be a meeting of the minds.

Mr. PAUL. Mr. Hartley, I believe-honestly I believe we had a meeting of the minds.

Mr. HARTLEY. Maybe under proper auspices you might have a meeting of signatures.

Mr. PAUL. We would certainly like to have a meeting of signatures. Mr. HARTLEY. Mr. Chairman, I am going to suggest to you that we might call a recess of 15 minutes and see if you can't get Mr. te Groen and Mr. Carroll in the office here and settle this thing.

Mr. PAUL. Mr. Hartley, there is one thing I am supposed to do, and that is be on the air at 4 o'clock. I would like very much to be excused for the day. I can spend 5 or 6 minutes. Our radio station is about eight blocks up the street. I would like to limber up the aged fingers before I start playing.

Mr. KEARNS. All right; we will excuse you.

Mr. PAUL. I would like to be excused tomorrow. I have to work tomorrow. I will be available Thursday.

Mr. MCCANN. Unless you have overlooked something in the record, and for the purpose of removing misimpression which apparently the witness has gained with respect to the testimony of Mr. Carroll in Washington, I do not find that Mr. Carroll at any time in his testimony, at least, up to the point where he finished his direct statementI finished reading that he was paying men who did not work in his orchestra. The story just as you have told it here factually, and I am reading from the record. I can't say what was in the paper. Mr. PAUL. I qualified my statement by saying that this

Mr. KEARNS. Yes.

Mr. MCCANN. I just wanted to check that fact for you.

Mr. PAUL. That was newspaper reports. And also I heard Fulton Lewis say this.

Mr. MCCANN. There is one thing I would like to bring up. Mr. Petrillo, when he was before us, told us that he had the power at any time to set aside any provision of the constitution and bylaws. He explained that power had been vested in the president for years before

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he came into office. In other words, it wasn't just a power Mr. Petrillo had; it was a power Mr. Weber had before him.

Under those circumstances-and I feel under the fact there was a conference between Mr. Petrillo and Mr. Kearns in Washington-and Mr. Petrillo indicated a sincere desire, I believe these matters might be cleared up. I believe that the chairman is correct, and I want you to know it is not my disposition, nor the disposition, I am sure, of the committee to do a useless thing and to continue the hearing for the purpose of aggravating an unhappy situation. It certainly is not the desire, I don't believe, of the chairman.

There is one thing I can't understand. I want to ask you why it can't be done, to settle the issue. Unfinished matters are not pleasant for the committee. A telephone call to Mr. Petrillo, with the various powers he exercises, could easily clear the situation and a contract could be entered into. That apparently you are agreeable to and I think Mr. Carroll is agreeable to.

Mr. Carroll, are you agreeable to that?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes.

Mr. MCCANN. Do you know of any reason why that can't be done, rather than have that thing left in abeyance for several days?

Mr. PAUL. Mr. McCann, I thought I made that perfectly clear. Mr. MCCANN. I know you said your board of directors was scattered. As I indicated to you-and Mr. Petrillo didn't hesitate to say it was true-in spite of the fact you have a board, according to your constitution and bylaws, Mr. Petrillo has the power and exercises it in emergencies to overrule anyone or anything, except financial matters. I want to make that plain.

Mr. PAUL. Do you want me to comment on that?
Mr. MCCANN. I would like for you to; yes.

Mr. PAUL. That is a power which has rested in our constitution for many, many years, and has been very rarely used. I don't know of any instance of it being used, and I believe that Mr. Petrillo would be very loath to use it to save 3 or 4 days' time.

Now, Mr. Carroll is at the present time employing our people and paying them the same fee which is set forth in the tentative contract that we tried to arrive at.

Mr. MCCANN. May I make another proposal without further comment, Mr. Chairman?

I propose at this time that we discontinue the hearing with respect to the Earl Carroll phase of this matter. We do want to go into some matters pertaining to the financial organization and the financial setthat I asked the treasurer for, but so far as the Earl Carroll phase of this situation is concerned, I move that we discontinue that until he can hear from the board of directors. You think that can be by Monday or Tuesday?

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Mr. PAUL. This is Tuesday, isn't it?

Mr. MCCANN. Yes.

Mr. PAUL. I should think a week certainly would be enough.
Mr. MCCANN. You think by Monday of next week?

Mr. PAUL. Mr. Bagley could tell you better about that because he is

a member of that board and knows better how long it takes.

Mr. KEARNS. Mr. Counsel, on your motion, I will reserve that decision until after the recess, and we will stand recessed for 10 minutes. (Short recess taken.)

Mr. KEARNS. The meeting will come to order.
Mr. te Groen, will you take the stand?

TESTIMONY OF JOHN TE GROEN-Recalled

Mr. KEARNS. You are under oath, are you not?
Mr. TE GROEN. I am, sir.

Mr. KEARNS. In lieu of the conference we have just had, I think you have a statement to make.

Mr. TE GROEN. I am very pleased to announce to the members or the people that are here that the Earl Carroll dispute has been settled.

We are going to sign the contract with Mr. Carroll for 3 years, subject to renegotiation every year on wages, hours, and working conditions.

That is all I have to say. Anything else you want me to say?
Mr. KEARNS. That is all. I have no other questions.

Mr. MCCANN. I believe, Mr. Chairman, that there are one or two other things that perhaps we ought to have in the record. I believe is agreed that there shall be no strike.

Mr. KEARNS. Mr. McCann, I think those provisions are taken care of in the contract.

Mr. MCCANN. Are they? I didn't know that that had been covered. C

Mr. TE GROEN. They are, sir.

Mr. KEARNS. I think we will not have anything on the record other than what appears in the contract.

Mr. TE GROEN. That no strike is in lieu of the clause that he had in his original proposition about arbitration.

Mr. MCCANN. That is correct, I understand.

Mr. HARTLEY. I would suggest that a copy of the contract might be

made a part of the record.

Mr. KEARNS. Oh, yes. You have no objection?

Mr. TE GROEN. There is no objection to that.

Mr. KEARNS. That will be made part of the record.

Thank you,

Mr. te Groen.

(The contract referred to is as follows:)

FINAL AGREEMENT

AUGUST 5, 1947.

Earl Carroll and the Musicians Mutual Protective Association, Local No. 47, American Federation of Musicians, hereinafter called Local No. 47, both of Los Angeles, Calif. agree as follows:

Earl Carroll, either in person or operating under corporate form desires to employ musicians, members of said Local No. 47, and said Local No. 47 desires to furnish same.

Therefore, it is agreed as follows:

1. This agreement shall apply to all entertainment enterprises, either personal or corporate, under the control of Earl Carroll and located within the jurisdiction of said Local No. 47.

2. That Earl Carroll shall have the right to engage only the number of members he deems necessary in said enterprises.

3. It is agreed that during the term of this agreement no stoppage of work wil be permitted and that the musicians so employed by Earl Carroll shall be obligated and compelled to perform the services agreed upon though other groups in the same establishment may be on strike, provided that neither party shall be bound in the event of calamity, vis major, or act of God, beyond the control of the parties.

4. It is agreed that all of Earl Carroll's activities are to be considered as being in interstate commerce.